Dangerous Dogs!

[glojo]

There are a large number of dog owners on this forum and we usually tend to have healthy discussions on random topical news events.

Dangerous Dogs!
My own personal opinion is that it is NOT usually the dogs fault that it has become 'Dangerous.' Nine times out of ten it is the reckless owner that has allowed the animal to become dangerous.

At present the media is having kittens about defining what is a dangerous dog, and what breeds should be included. To me a dangerous dog is one that you cannot take food from. A dangerous dog is one where you cannot take away its favourite toy\plaything without being threatened or attacked.

A poodle is basically a French hunting dog, should that be classed as a dangerous dog?

From what I understand the Pit Bull Terrier is a type that is open to interpretation. Solicitors will have a field day arguing over what is, and what is not a Pit Bull Terrier. Who cares what the shape, type, colour or size of a dog is. If the thing attacks someone then it is dangerous, be it a Jack Russell, Corgi, German Shepherd or Pit Bull, or poodle. What about those horrible little furry dogs that some female film stars like to carry in their arms and these things snap at anyone that trys to stroke them?

The owners are the danger, they are the ones we should be looking at.

All dogs should be licenced and there should be strict terms and conditions to owning the animal. If we cannot afford the licence then we cannot afford to own a dog.

Police Dogs are usually an excellent example of what a well trained animal should be like. Biting criminals one minute and going into infant schools the next doing public relations.

Over to you

 

[Only me]

I would tend to agree - the owners are the ones to blame when a dog goes "bad".

Classic example of this was a past neighbour of mine who bought one of these Samoyed type dogs and did not have a clue about how to train it or control it.
The dog is now 5 years old and still cr**s in their house!!
The thing used to (still does) bark incessantly, and when I politely suggested they might want to do something about it, they said "well we do not want it to feel intimidated by us"
WTF???

They eventually tried one of these sound activated collars that sprays an unpleasant scent every time the dog barks - but took it off after ten minutes as the dog looked "distressed".

My main worry was i had two small kids at the time, who liked to run about squealing - as they do.
If the dog had reverted to instinct and gone hunting for small squealing things, the owners could not have stopped it for love nor money - the dog basically ignores them.
Believe me - if it had gone anywhere near my kids, I would have stopped it - permanently, shame - as it would not have been the fault of the dog.

They have since moved away - but we still occasionally see them being pulled along by the dog as it still needs to be kept on a lead at any time it is out of the house, as it runs away, will not come when called and will not walk beside them!!.

Dont get me wrong, I dont mind well trained, obediant dogs, and have had a couple myself in a past life, but dogs are basically hunters/killers, and if they do not know exactly who is top dog in their pack they are a potential danger.

<stands back and waits for reaction from dog lovers everywhere!! >

GB

 

[Spin_bowler]

I was waiting for someone to start on this one .

My view is simple, any dog which behaves dangerously should be treated in law, not just named breeds which would prevent a whole lot of legal wrangling over whether anyone can be held accountable for such atrocious attacks as the one that claimed the life of that poor little girl.

The difficulty is, of course, that it is too late after the fact and that reports of dangerous behaviour should be taken more seriously by the powers that be and properly investigated. Resource-hungry and expensive, probably, but worse than children being mauled, no.

Bottom line is that as long as stupid people are allowed to own dogs they may be mis-treated and likely to be dangerous. It should be encumbent upon an agency (the veterinary profession in alliance with RSPCA, perhaps?) to note poorly kept animals who are likley to be risky.

I have come across many people who see their dog as a status-symbol and revel in its size and 'hardness' which I think can only be a comment on the something else they possess which can be measured by simlar criteria. They more often tend to be men than women.

Matt

 

[BTB 500]

Any dog is potentially dangerous.

The Kennel Club issued a good statement

Ellie Lawrenson statement
03-Jan-07

The Kennel Club is extremely shocked and saddened by the tragic incident that has resulted in the death of Ellie Lawrenson in Merseyside on New Year’s Day. Our thoughts and condolences are with Ellie’s family and everyone who knew her.

This dreadful news highlights the need for a revision to current Dangerous Dog legislation in England as the general public are not being sufficiently protected by the law as it currently stands. Breed specific legislation has not proved an effective tool to deal with people who keep dogs like the one that attacked Ellie Lawrenson, and the inability to prosecute owners whose dogs attack on private property such as a family home is also deeply flawed. This incident further demonstrates the need to both educate the public on the vital importance of training dogs correctly and to punish those that fail to do so. The importance of training and education cannot be overstressed and the Kennel Club continues to promote safe interaction between children and dogs through both the Safe and Sound and Good Citizen Dog Scheme. For further information please visit www.thekennelclub.org.uk.

However the Kennel Club does not welcome any pit bull amnesty, or any other breed specific knee-jerk response reminiscent of the rushed, and ineffective Dangerous Dogs Act 1991. While we understand the intentions of the amnesty to reduce the number of dog attacks, the Kennel Club is of the view that displays of aggressive behaviour by any dog, regardless of breed, is the responsibility of the dog’s owner. In the wrong hands, any breed of dog can be dangerous - the number of dog attacks by breeds other than those on the dangerous dogs list illustrates this. Similarly, any dog that has been trained by its owner appropriately and sufficiently should not be outlawed or destroyed based on its breed alone. The Kennel Club has further fears that dog owners could use such an amnesty as a ‘dumping ground’ and that this could encourage grossly irresponsible dog ownership. Owners must be responsible for training their dogs properly; dumping them when they realise that this may be harder than they thought is not the solution and will not prevent dog attacks.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:03-Jan-07

 

[pammy]

It is people who are dangerous who can in turn create dogs who have the ability to be the same.

Pure breed dogs are bred for a purpose, Cocker Spaniels for example for flushing Woodcocks. Retrievers - well guess And as such all pure bred dogs need specific training and treatment/environment to ensure they are content in their lives and do not become dangerous. Dogs can become difficult when they do not have the correct stimulation - a factor many owners forget or ignore.

Bull terriers are bred for hunting, baiting and fighting many years ago and have typical terrier instincts however Pit Bull type are bred purely for street fighting and have aggression built into them. This is true of a number of Bull Terrier type breeds.

It is the banning of this type of purposeful breeding that needs to be stamped out and the practice of dog fighting too.

Sadly backyard and puppyfarm type breeding of usually mild mannered breeds increases the risk of bad temperaments being seen and owners being subjected to dogs that are difficult to train, handle and in some cases aggressive along with significant health problems as they do not health screen. This type of breeding should also be stopped. Reputable dog breeders breed for type, health and temperament and would not breed from any dog that showed any aggressive characteristics if they were going into pet homes etc.

All dogs have the potential to be dangerous and anyone who denies this is blinkered and it is they who are dangerous - imho. With the correct training and handling though the vast majority of dogs are perfectly safe and I would suggest this is higher than 9/10 but what people should never forget is that all dogs are animals and you never know what might spook them so you have to be aware at all times of this.

 

[DITTRICH]

A poodle is basically a French hunting dog

No way, that's Tony that is!

Les

 

[BTB 500]

Poodles are actually a German breed, and water retrievers rather than hunting dogs. I used to have 3 black Standard Poodles ...

 

[wallingd]

I never trust dogs and never have. As you say Pammy they are animals + unpredictable. I always take a wide berth of any animal that I don't trust + take heed of the advice on the BBC News site about how to act when a dog approaches you i.e no sudden movements, don't flay your arms about etc.

 

[BonzoDog]

My wife says of Pit Bulls that one should look at their owners and you know all you need to know.
Highly generalised, judgemental, prejudiced and probably a few more negatives but I can't say that I disagree

 

[scotth_uk]

Just as a reference point for pure pitbull terriers, I'd like to share my experience of sharing a house with a mate who had one.

A mate got one as a puppy through a 'shifty' mate, and registered it as a 'labrador cross'. Dishonest owner from day 1. He treated the dog well, however it annoyed his wife (always in the house), so she continually abused and chased the dog with a broom. As the dog grew up, it was always afraid of a broom, which always made me laugh.

It was a very kind dog to people, always loving and friendly towards new people and children. Unfortunately the owner was quite a fan of his dog behaving aggressively towards other dogs and would regularly teach his dog to be aggressive.

It never attacked and hurt another dog that I am aware of, but it was trained to be nasty. Luckily the dog never became nasty towards any people.

It was a scoundrel for coming into the house and taking things, as well as pulling clothes off the line to chew on. An incredibly strong dog, but not aware of it's own abilities - it would quite often come running towards you and knock you over, then lick you to death.

It could easily jump a 6 foot yard fence, which ended up in quite a bad situation. The dog liked to run up the fence line at the postman, always barking and taunting him. Being a nasty looking dog, the postman was always scared. One day, the dog cleared the fence and ran after him. [Note we checked the dog's speed one day on a bicycle speedo, clocked at 40kmh at full speed!].

What do you think happened?

Contrary to what most people thought may happen, the dog just wanted to bark and run after the postman. Unfortunately the postman was scared, didn't look where he was going and hit a power pole at considerable speed. The postman was injured, the bike a write-off - yet the dog just sat next to him licking him when he eventually stopped tumbling. It sat there until someone came to help!

The council came around and fined my friend for the dog and mandated a muzzle when in public and 'dangerous dog' signs around the property.

Overall I enjoyed my time with that dog. It was well behaved, but it's strength and enthusiasm got it into trouble.

PS - We used to ride road cycles together as a group, often leaving from this property. I can remember that Lucan would always get upset when we'd leave and he'd always try and jump the fence. He had to be chained. Once we rode off as a pack and about 1.5 - 2 miles later he caught us riding down a main roadway. He'd broken free of his chain and somehow found us! Unfortunately the little chap was running on hot bitumen and actually badly injured the 'pads' on his feet. Couldn't walk for a week. :-(

 

[Alfie]

I personally dislike intensely all those pit bull/staffordshire type dogs. Not only are they intensely ugly, they are savages and bred as such. I like many other types of dog and think responsible owners should be free to own/breed or whatever. However, those 'chavs' who walk around with pit bull types as some form of statement of their hardness need shooting as much as their dogs do.

I have had one or two 'encounters' with dogs myself. One a doberman and the other a German shepard. Both dogs lost the fight, one with its life expectancy uncertain, the other ran off quite literally with its tail between its legs whimpering. I would not hesitate to kill any dog which threatend my family or me, simple. Dogs can smell fear and if you are afraid of them, they know it and then they have got you. An aggressive dog has just one weapon against you and thats its teeth/mouth. A human has the intelligence to know that a dog can and possibly will use its mouth. The dog does not have the intelligence to know that the human has four limbs which are weapons against the dog.

The above said, these incidents were both caused primarily by the lack of respect for others shown by the owners. In most cases owners are responsible and keep their dogs under control. Some even clean up after their dogs have emptied their bowels too.

I find it rather sad though in this day and age, when a dog mauls a child it can be destroyed very quickly. However when a human kills a child we as a society slap their wrist and say 'There there never mind, you were probably bullied at school'.

Pit bulls are bred for their aggression, they should be banned completely. Many years ago a friend of mine had one. It was a docile loving pet, even if it was unbelievably ugly. One day whilst out walking it went up to another dog, much smaller, and simply bit its head off with a violent shaking of its own head. Totally unprovoked.

Its always the few bad owners who give the rest a bad name. I like dogs that are bred as pets or working dogs which belong to responsible stock. Its just those few others that I detest.

One very useful tip for anyone who is afraid of boisterous/aggresive dogs; Buy yourself a bar of ExLax chocolate. When the dog comes bounding up to you, feed it the whole bar! The owner will know about it later at home

 

[Satch]

Here, I would submit, is the primary source of the problem:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/mai...FWAVCBQ0IV0?xml=/news/2007/01/03/udogs103.xml

In general, dogs do not arrive and then go choose an owner for themselves.

 

[SportsCoupeRich]

Family on the second doberman and i would never be able to love another breed as much. its bred for guarding, granted, but they have always been treated and trained lovingly.

Clearly a BNP member with two dobermans as part of a nazi fetish may not raise them so well!

 

[mark.t]

ok all dogs are dangerous no exceptions ....ask your kids would you mind if you brought a animal into the home that has claws on the ends of its 4 paws rows of teeth that a made for ripping flesh apart...and here's the good bit (no pun intended) we also have no idea if it will attack you, can not give you any guaranty ....if you trip over it...wake it suddenly ...or fall on it while playing or just catch it in the wrong mood ....it may well bite you or rip you apart for no apparent reason or a reason mentioned ....would you like one ....see what the answer is.....any one tells me that there dog doesn't bite is barking mad ...what they mean is...it hasn't bitten anyone yet...unfortunately Fido will be around in ours lives for a long time ....because most dog owners are barmy........apart from working dogs....other dogs should be under strict control...and licensed correctly...

 

[mark.t]

almost forgot kittys should be on there way out as well ....bloddy cats

 

[marcos]

I used to own a Staffordshire Bull Terrier and a Springer Spaniel. The Staffy was the most docile loveable dog I have ever come across and the Springer was just plain crazy. The Springer was the most volatile whereas the Staffy was basically so soft it became a little bit worrying.
Neither of my dogs ever attacked another dog or anything but I knew damn well the power the little Staffy had in his jaws. Because of this when our first child came along I began to worry even though the Staffy absolutely adored my baby daughter. Luckily my parent in laws dog died and they offered to take both dogs to live with them.
Believe me it was a hard decision but I knew that they would be treated very well, had a massive garden to run round in all day and I could see them whenever I wanted. The main thing that made my mind up was that no matter how well you know a dog it will always have the ability to turn vicious at the blink of an eye and no matter how carefull you are the risk is always there.
I bought both my dogs up with discipline, care and love and they always behaved perfectly but the risk is always there. The way some of these dogs are bought up it is a wonder that they dont attack every single person they see. The unfortunate side to all this is that because of some stupid little loser who thinks he's some sort of gangster a child has lost it's life and yet again this type of dog gets bad press. Why can't we have a law banning complete brain dead morons from owning dogs full stop, you can put money on it that if the same moron who owned the Pittbull had owned a Yorkshire Terrier it would still try and kill.

 

[Dieselman]

Why can't we have a law banning complete brain dead morons

Enother one to run for parliament on. It'd make a good use for the redundant Darleks from Dr Who.
.
.
.
Exterminate
Exterminate
Exterminate.

 

[glojo]

Poodles are actually a German breed, and water retrievers rather than hunting dogs. I used to have 3 black Standard Poodles ...

I'm afraid poodles do nothing for me and I have no actual knowledge of their origins (or apples )

The Standard Poodle is the oldest of the three poodle sizes, with the miniature and toy varieties developing later. The exact origin of the poodle is unknown, some say they originated in France and others say that they come from Germany. It is thought they may have been taken to France and other countries with the German troops during the 1400’s. They evolved into their present form in France. They were used in Germany as a water retrieving dog and today some still have the hunting instinct.

I feel for Wallingd, and PLEASE do NOT think this is a criticism. If you are apprehensive when your near a dog, then you will NEVER mask that apprehension. I am NOT saying dogs will make a bee line for you, but I am suggesting a dominant dog will not be afraid of letting you know who is the boss.

I never trust dogs and never have. As you say Pammy they are animals + unpredictable. I always take a wide berth of any animal that I don't trust + take heed of the advice on the BBC News site about how to act when a dog approaches you i.e no sudden movements, don't flay your arms about etc.

I would also add try your hardest not to make eye contact, but don't exaggerate this avoidance, I suppose I am saying don't stare, or keep looking at this animal to see if it is watching you.

What I used to do many years ago to reassure young children was to let our German Shepherd hold a huge home made baby's dummy. You should see the childrens expressions. One minute they are afraid of this 'vicious animal' Mothers are apprehensively holding their offspring. The instant they see this same dog looking boss eyed holding a large dummy, all the children and the mothers go ahhhhhh, isn't he sweet. Same dog, same teeth. Children and mothers would queue to pet the dog, have there pictures taken with it. Then they would say my dog was different.. It was not like other, more vicious animals. I would then have a friend appear dressed up as a 'bad guy' waving a stick, shouting etc and this same adorable cuddly, long haired dopey dog would try to tear my friends arm from his shoulder! We would then put the dummy back in the dogs mouth and again let the children fuss this 'dopey dog'.

It is NOT the dog that is dangerous it is the owner.

It never attacked and hurt another dog that I am aware of, but it was trained to be nasty. Luckily the dog never became nasty to-wards any people..

Unfortunately I might be disagreeing with scotth_uk. In my example I have COMPLETE control of my dog. Your mate quite clearly has 'trained' his dog to be NASTY. That might simply be a bad choice of words but no one should ever train a dog to be nasty. I will explain.

It could easily jump a 6 foot yard fence, which ended up in quite a bad situation. The dog liked to run up the fence line at the postman, always barking and taunting him. Being a nasty looking dog, the postman was always scared. One day, the dog cleared the fence and ran after him. [Note we checked the dog's speed one day on a bicycle speedo, clocked at 40kmh at full speed!].

What do you think happened?

Contrary to what most people thought may happen, the dog just wanted to bark and run after the postman. Unfortunately the postman was scared, didn't look where he was going and hit a power pole at considerable speed. The postman was injured, the bike a write-off - yet the dog just sat next to him licking him when he eventually stopped tumbling. It sat there until someone came to help!.

Whose fault was it that this postman got injured? Was it the postman's because he was simply afraid of a dog that has been TRAINED TO BE NASTY? What would have happened if this postman had run in front of a large lorry? Like I said at the start of this thread. The dangerous owner will always blame someone else.

What ever punishment the authorities gave to your mate, it was deserved. Sorry for highlighting your post but that dogs behaviour is wrong. Your friend should not give the dog the opportunity to harass innocent members of the public.

If your friend is a real dog person then let him join a Working Trials Club and train his dog up to the Police Dog Stakes

I believe most Police Dogs are a credit to their handlers and the breed of dog which will usually be a pedigree of one breed or another.

 

[scotth_uk]

Morning John,

I probably should have clarified that I didn't approve of his methods at all. Was just noting that he (and others around) were lucky that it never savaged anyone. Postman's incident was definitely a shame, and unacceptable in every way.

Scott

 

[Dieselman]

If your friend is a real dog person then let him join a Working Trials Club and train his dog up to the Police Dog Stakes

As someone who has no interest in keeping a dog as a pet, especially in the small urban dwellings most of us live in, I find proper working dogs fascinating.

The way they work and the control the handlers have is a joy to watch.

I recently saw someone training a dog to obey commands given by a whistle. It was interesting to see, especially as it was in a public game park, just after I had nearly been attacked by a dog.

I would only have a dog if I had a property such as a farm, and then it would live outside but be allowed to roam at will.