Daughter wants a car?

[Doodle]

Insurance seems to be little different to any other supermini tbh. I pay about the same on the Zoe as I would for Lucy's Fiesta.

 

[219]

No personal experience of electric cars , but Tesla aside , I think most have pitifully short range . Does your daughter know what sort of use the car is going to be put to ? Will it be exclusively short local journeys , or does she anticipate longer journeys ? Suppose she does run out of juice on a longer journey , can the AA give a roadside 'boost' to get to the next charge point , or do they tow you there ?

I'm sure you've already had the conversation about green credentials : where and how the electricity to charge the car is generated ; the materials used to make the batteries and what happens after they are exhausted and need to be 'recycled' ... beside the purchase cost of the vehicle , if it is to be kept for a number of years , what does it cost to replace the battery packs ? This cost will doubtless come down as the technology matures .

As with all new drivers , the risk of having a bump during the first year or so of driving is greater - would it make sense to start out on a less costly car which you wouldn't be so bothered about if it got bumped or dented ? My own daughter was in a similar frame of mind , and wanted a new MINI as her first car , working out all the finance packages etc . I persuaded her to start with an older car , which she could afford to buy outright , and she got a 2002 Polo 1.4L petrol automatic , which she now loves and will probably keep for a few years .

Insurance is another question - apart from the weighting against new drivers , I don't know how insurance for electric vehicles compares ?

Whatever the outcome , I wish her the best .

 

[brucemillar]

It stuck out a mile!

There is one on our road and a client has one, I'd wince at spending that much on such a tiny engine, that's before you consider the entry/exit situation with those doors.

Where to start with the i8? I has the supercar looks and is almost futuristic in it's design - even allowing for the doors. The 3 cylinder engine when in use apparently propels the car well but it has a tiny range. Then ( like the Tesla ) you have the issue of supercar looks and performance that cripple the range as soon as you attempt to use them. My neighbour has a Tesla with "ludicrous mode" tp quote him "it is ludicrous" when you engage it the range drops to a few miles - almost walking distance. When you don't use it the temptation spoils the drive.

But I still love it and technology will improve with use and demand.

 

[brucemillar]

Doodle

Thank you so much. Some great real life experience here for which there is no substitute. That is exactly what I was hoping to find.

The entire debate falls apart on range: Her job and social life, will not survive the limited range and lengthy re-charging periods/stops. At eighteen and with the freedom of the 'open road' you want to be able to get out and escape without stopping every few miles/hours. I sense a social argument here as well. The driver is effectively captive during the charging cycle. I would worry about somebody watching her, in the knowledge that she is now stopped for xx hours awaiting a stationary car to be recharged.

Insurance: Preliminary inquiries (borne out here) suggest that there is not great deal of difference +\- against a similar petrol car. If you then have a 'black box' it brings it down even more, but t is still expensive in that crucial first year.

Environmental View: This is just a nightmare. I am now of the opinion that 90% is made up stuff and the remaining 75% is made up stuff ;^) But we as a family feel that if nobody moves then 'nobody moves' so nothing will change and things have to change. Tesla's entire story is maybe a textbook read as to the problems that the industry faces. Of all the owners of Tesla and BMWi8's I know 100% of them have these as "additional" cars. Not essential cars, additional fun cars that get used on school runs as they look cool or on short commutes, as they are cheap to run? My neighbour drives a Mercedes GL as his main car and a Tesla (ludicrous mode jobbie) as his fun car. I just doubt that this is saving the planet in any way, shape or form?

But we are having the discussion and sharing the debate, without arguments. At eighteen just started in her apprenticeship, bright and beautiful, it his her world and I hope she makes a better job of it than I ever managed.

 

[zipdip]

Well Bruce,it just shows you,that you try your best to bring up a petrol head and their heads are turned by the green lobby,I feel your pain,I know next to nothing about electric cars,but if your daughter buys one,I would suggest you get ready to recover her when she runs out of juice,maybe you could add a recovery truck to your stable of cars and save some gigantic bills,not much help am I,but look forward to seeing the next instalment.

 

[brucemillar]

Well Bruce,it just shows you,that you try your best to bring up a petrol head and their heads are turned by the green lobby,I feel your pain,I know next to nothing about electric cars,but if your daughter buys one,I would suggest you get ready to recover her when she runs out of juice,maybe you could add a recovery truck to your stable of cars and save some gigantic bills,not much help am I,but look forward to seeing the next instalment.

Brian. Thank you. To be honest. I am loving the debate. When I passed my test (like many on here) it was get anything you could afford (AKA wreck) beg, borrow etc to run it and learn how to fix it.

My mother (bless her) fell straight through the floor on my first car (a Mini Cooper) and that was as she got in it before it turned a wheel with me driving. At this point I realised that the floor was a sheet of badly cut hardboard. Things have changed a bit now (we don't use hardboard anymore)

 

[alabbasi]

She sounds like an idealist . It's a great way to look at things but not with a first car. Better finding something cheap (as inexperienced drivers tend to bump into things) , safe and only requires a quick walk back from the petrol station with a can of fuel if it runs out of juice.

 

[Codger49]

With your tales of the driving standards in your locality, I would recommend the Pajero for her first few months as a solo driver.

 

[wu56Shoozz]

I think a W124 like this beckons Bruce...a classic convertible (if its available) gives you errrm.."A Project to tinker on.."

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Or Maybe if you feeling a little flush, and seeing she's a "woman" she could go one better with all her mates instead of texting at the wheel...

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Wha d'ya say mate??

 

[Doodle]

Doodle

Thank you so much. Some great real life experience here for which there is no substitute. That is exactly what I was hoping to find.

No problem Bruce. If it helps add weight in either direction, at the end of this term I will not be replacing it with another one. Why?

Reliability - mine has so far spent over 2 months in the garage, for a variety of maladies which in some cases are still present. It might be an isolated case but I see enough reports elsewhere to suggest that is optimistic. Some of it is niggly, for example the Entertainment/System control unit has a habit of locking up. Which would be fine if the power button wasn't a soft shutdown. The only way to actually restart it is to lock the car and walk away for 15 minutes. Some of it is a lot more critical, such as the Power Control Unit failing. Cue massive red warning lights and a big yellow taxi to the dealers.

Range anxiety - You're currently beholden to a comparatively very limited network for refuelling, which cannot fully be relied upon to be working/accessible when you need it. The charger could be broken, it could have someone else using it which means you have to wait, which is a problem if that was your only option because you've no longer got enough range to get anywhere else. "When" you'll get somewhere suddenly has an air of uncertainty.
This means you end up planning contingencies, and never pushing endurance just in case. Thus your already limited range just got even shorter (although this will improve as the longer range cell packs come in).

Cost - What price saving the planet? While altruism is noble, one can't completely overlook the fiscal aspect - to replace mine is simply too expensive now. At the moment I pay about £190 for 12k a year PCP deal and battery lease. The last set of figures I had from Renault, that will jump to over £350 for the current equivalent. That is simply too much - for the same money I can finance a Polo GTI and have £100 left for fuel each month (more if you include the costs of recharging).

It hasn't been without upsides. It's quiet (except that means you can hear the rattles more), it's good in town and especially in traffic (no start stop, no chucking out exhaust fumes), and you can set it to preheat so it's warm and defrosted when you walk out the front door on a winter's morning. But for me those don't outweigh the downsides. Perhaps I'm not yet ready for EV motoring, but I'm not sure the country really is either.

 

[brucemillar]

No problem Bruce. If it helps add weight in either direction, at the end of this term I will not be replacing it with another one. Why?

Reliability - mine has so far spent over 2 months in the garage, for a variety of maladies which in some cases are still present. It might be an isolated case but I see enough reports elsewhere to suggest that is optimistic. Some of it is niggly, for example the Entertainment/System control unit has a habit of locking up. Which would be fine if the power button wasn't a soft shutdown. The only way to actually restart it is to lock the car and walk away for 15 minutes. Some of it is a lot more critical, such as the Power Control Unit failing. Cue massive red warning lights and a big yellow taxi to the dealers.

Range anxiety - You're currently beholden to a comparatively very limited network for refuelling, which cannot fully be relied upon to be working/accessible when you need it. The charger could be broken, it could have someone else using it which means you have to wait, which is a problem if that was your only option because you've no longer got enough range to get anywhere else. "When" you'll get somewhere suddenly has an air of uncertainty.
This means you end up planning contingencies, and never pushing endurance just in case. Thus your already limited range just got even shorter (although this will improve as the longer range cell packs come in).

Cost - What price saving the planet? While altruism is noble, one can't completely overlook the fiscal aspect - to replace mine is simply too expensive now. At the moment I pay about £190 for 12k a year PCP deal and battery lease. The last set of figures I had from Renault, that will jump to over £350 for the current equivalent. That is simply too much - for the same money I can finance a Polo GTI and have £100 left for fuel each month (more if you include the costs of recharging).

It hasn't been without upsides. It's quiet (except that means you can hear the rattles more), it's good in town and especially in traffic (no start stop, no chucking out exhaust fumes), and you can set it to preheat so it's warm and defrosted when you walk out the front door on a winter's morning. But for me those don't outweigh the downsides. Perhaps I'm not yet ready for EV motoring, but I'm not sure the country really is either.

Brilliantly thought out response. Thank you.

The idea of a “cool” small project car appeals to us both. Mini Cooper here I come. But the reality is that would mean two cars, as contingency for doing up the project car. Then the potential hassle of selling the contingency car etc etc.

I need to be realistic in my own fleet. I no longer use my C55 Wagon. But I spend money on keeping it :^(. Likewise with my my beloved 124 Wagon. But I cannot part with either without being heavily sedated. I just cannot get sensible. But for my daughter I will do the right thing. They have both dealt with my illness without complaint and had to deal with stuff that they never should have done. Despite this, they are beautiful intelligent young women who work with us. Can’t argue that one.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Drewsk]

Hi, I bought my daughter a Suzuki Alto, 3 cylinder, free rfl. She loves it. Not bad on fuel and brill round town. Biggest factor I think is insurance cost at that age. My daughter had to pay nearly £1600 with a black box fitted for her insurance after she’d passed her test

 

[Doodle]

A cheap small hatchback will always sell. Everyone needs a first car.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

First thing to say is that she has a 50% chance of a bang in her first year of driving. (That's 30% which go unreported, plus 20% which go through the insurance) So, with that in mind, the smallest cars are worth avoiding. And by that I mean MINI, Corsa, Polo, and Fiesta. (Insurers hate the MINI for young drivers too)

Teenager drivers are involved in 400 of the 1700 deaths on the road each year, so a solid lump of metal around her is to be recommended.

The obvious candidate is the well proven Prius, as used all over the World. It's a hybrid, but it's cheap (£5,000 for a low mileage ten year old), popular, and easy to buy and sell.

But really, for a first car, an economical petrol Focus is hard to beat. My son got his ten year old first car, a Focus 2.0, when he was 21. 30 months on, it has cost £250 in repairs, beyond servicing. Call it 1p / mile. 3p/ mile if you include depreciation.

Is a Focus ecological? Well, more ecological than a car whose batteries are made in Canada, shipped to Japan, inserted in a car, which is then shipped to the UK.

No new car is ecological compared to using a used car. The clue is in the enormous cost of manufacture. With a used car, she's using something already on the Earth.

.

 

[Deleted member 6183]

First thing to say is that she has a 50% chance of a bang in her first year of driving. (That's 30% which go unreported, plus 20% which go through the insurance)
.

Bleak statistic do you have a source for the 30% unreported?

 

[219]

...
As you may know, the chargers at services now charge 30p per kWh, you just need to download an app and put in your card details for it to work. Quite convenient in that sense. No membership required. However for the little Leaf, it's around £4.44 for 40 miles, so not very cost effective. Ideally you have to keep it charged for free (or on the cheap) in places like your home, Ikea or certain supermarkets.

But not in Scotland, where all public charge points are free .

 

[219]

Doodle

Thank you so much. Some great real life experience here for which there is no substitute. That is exactly what I was hoping to find.

The entire debate falls apart on range: Her job and social life, will not survive the limited range and lengthy re-charging periods/stops. At eighteen and with the freedom of the 'open road' you want to be able to get out and escape without stopping every few miles/hours. I sense a social argument here as well. The driver is effectively captive during the charging cycle. I would worry about somebody watching her, in the knowledge that she is now stopped for xx hours awaiting a stationary car to be recharged.

Insurance: Preliminary inquiries (borne out here) suggest that there is not great deal of difference +\- against a similar petrol car. If you then have a 'black box' it brings it down even more, but t is still expensive in that crucial first year.

Environmental View: This is just a nightmare. I am now of the opinion that 90% is made up stuff and the remaining 75% is made up stuff ;^) But we as a family feel that if nobody moves then 'nobody moves' so nothing will change and things have to change. Tesla's entire story is maybe a textbook read as to the problems that the industry faces. Of all the owners of Tesla and BMWi8's I know 100% of them have these as "additional" cars. Not essential cars, additional fun cars that get used on school runs as they look cool or on short commutes, as they are cheap to run? My neighbour drives a Mercedes GL as his main car and a Tesla (ludicrous mode jobbie) as his fun car. I just doubt that this is saving the planet in any way, shape or form?

But we are having the discussion and sharing the debate, without arguments. At eighteen just started in her apprenticeship, bright and beautiful, it his her world and I hope she makes a better job of it than I ever managed.

I have one friend who has a Tesla : he got a very good deal buying it - good trade in for his Jaguar , the car was discounted as an ‘inventory’ model , for the balance he got ( as all electric car customers do ) an interest free loan from Scottish Government, and the charge point installed at his home ( again by grant from SG ) .

The car itself has a decent range of 200+ miles , and the Tesla supercharger network allows fast charging at stops comparable to petrol cars ( in the time it takes to go have a coffee ) .

Best of all - he’s retired, so mainly uses it to go golfing and fishing ...

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

Bleak statistic do you have a source for the 30% unreported?

Yes, common sense. The 22% reported to insurance companies is well documented / reported.

Common sense tells you that "people" only report less than half the bumps that we have, especially for first time drives who are paying over a grand to insure cars which are often not worth much. Unless a third party needs paying out substantially, those claims get sorted outside of insurance. Young drivers prefer not to report accidents involving drugs or drink.

To be fair, a reasonable chunk of those accidents are what they Yanks call fender benders - routine minor bodyshop bumps.

Police statistics for accidents always emphasise that they are "reported" statistics. They know they don't get to hear everything.

The 400+ teenage road deaths have been pretty stable for a long time now. Only a third of those killed are the drivers, the other two thirds are their teenage passengers.

Apologies for being blunt about all this, but most people become aware of the risk after they've had teenagers of that age, which is a bit late.

Given the small amount of miles that teenagers drive, it's insane that they account for more than a quarter of fatalities in the UK.

But, on the other hand, we are actually one of the safest countries in Europe. The French kill twice as many (3,500)


.

 

[Deleted member 6183]

Yes, common sense.

Thought so.

 

[ph47mf]

Has anyone mentioned BMW i3 with range extender yet? That's very quick (170bhp in a tiny box) and you won't get range anxiety.