Diagnosis labour - what is 'reasonable'?

[thefootster]

As I am aware labour charges to trace a vehicle fault have to be 'reasonable' in accordance withe the Supply of Goods and Services Act. I originally paid for a service at an independent garage and only went to the particular garage to have a misfiring fault diagnosed and repaired. No doubt I paid labour for this and the total service cost was over £900. However, the fault was not rectified.

When I returned it to the garage, who attempted to charge me for a further diagnosis fee (which I did not pay), my car was looked at on and off for the best part of a day which cost me over £700 (£315 for parts and the remainder labour, plus VAT). However, the problem is still there and none of the parts needed replaced (the garage was using the process of elimination in order to diagnose the problem). I also spent another couple of hundred pounds on other work which was completed satisfactory.

Can anyone advise what my rights are here? I paid the garage for a service (to repair the problem) but, despite working on my car, the garage has failed to do what I asked and paid them to do. Am I entited to a refund of the unnecessary/misdiagnosed parts used and also refund of the labour charges? Am I liable for further labour costs if I return it to the garage even after spending over £1600 in the particular garage?

 

[BlackC55]

The way I do it is that if the part does not fix the problem then you don't have to pay. Unless it is a troublesome issue where some parts may have to be tried firstly. I agree that with the customer first though.

What was the issue?

 

[thefootster]

Do you reckon that I'd be entitled to a full refund then?

One of the cylinders is misfiring. It had the plugs and coil leads checked, the ECU reprogrammed and then the ECU replaced with a reconditioned one, which all came to over £700 and hasn't fixed it. Obviously these needed to be checked to locate the problem but none of them have worked.

I'm just concerned about the cost now as I certainly don't have £700 to throw away to leave me in exactly the same position as when I started, and don't have more money to throw away on the chance that the same could happen again.

 

[BlackC55]

Did you authorise the repair?

What car is it?

 

[thefootster]

It's a 2004 C230k.

I accepted the advice that they had to start at the bottom and work through it but I'm no mechanic, so I suppose I did, but trusting that my car would be reasonably repaired (which it is not).

I think I can get the ECU refunded but it still leaves me nearly £400 down and the problem not fixed.

 

[BlackC55]

It will probably be either a sticky valve, carbon build up on the valve seat or a worn timing chain. Do a compression check first. If it's low then it's a valve or carbon issue.

 

[DSB SL AMG]

Is the garage a recognised MB indie or general car garage?

It's a 2004 C230k.

I accepted the advice that they had to start at the bottom and work through it but I'm no mechanic, so I suppose I did, but trusting that my car would be reasonably repaired (which it is not).

I think I can get the ECU refunded but it still leaves me nearly £400 down and the problem not fixed.

 

[E270 Owner]

Is the garage a recognised MB indie or general car garage?

Irrelevant

An engine is an engine in all cars it works the same with 3 basic steps for misfire after the consumables have been replaced/checked.

1. compression test
2. engine timing diagnostics
3. electronic diagnostics

Exhaust valves are usually the culprit.

 

[BlackC55]

They may have done one? Who knows?

If be interested to see the result.

 

[Deane x]

Find your self a good mb indie , a engine is a engine but a technician is not mechanic ...where did you get the work done kwik fit lol

 

[E270 Owner]

They may have done one? Who knows?

If be interested to see the result.

Me too.

You might, as I do, give a full breakdown of all tests performed for the customer.

This then covers myself and leaves no grey areas as they can see whats actually been done with all the facts figures and codes, they may not understand what they are looking at but they can go away and research online whats they have been presented with and get competitive prices etc.

 

[Annie19t]

Is the garage a recognised MB indie or general car garage?

Based on the above quote what is a recognised indie

 

[bob6600]

Based on the above quote what is a recognised indie

Recognised MB indie would be a predominantly Merc only repairer and would probably have Merc Specialist or similar associated to their name. In my book, would also have to have a STAR setup.

General car garage - repair any vehicle

There are some cross-overs in the above but I think it should explain it

 

[Annie19t]

Anyone can call themselves a specialist in any chosen field and in this thread claim to have star diagnostics however you pays your money you takes your chance

 

[thefootster]

Update: After eventually doing a compression test he garage have a suspicion that the one of the valve seats must be damaged and have advised getting a new cylinder head. They have not quoted me for this and only advised that it would be expensive (the garage is supposedly a recognised MB specialist in Birmingham).
They put my own original ECU back in but have not given me any money back as they said that the labour costs to extablish the fault (that is still only suspected).

I personally think that an indie garage charging over £800 just do diagnose a fault is seriously outrageously excessive, afterall they haven't actually fixed anything! But before I go knocking on the door of Trading Standards I'd like to hear peoples views on this....

Thanks in advance

 

[markmifsud]

Why not ask them for a break down of the costs, ie what did they do to warrant a bill for £800, and how much of that is due if they carry out the work.

 

[rf065]

You could ask them nicely to do the decent thing and come to an agreement that suits you both, or try your luck with the small claims court. Are they a member of any type of "good garage scheme" who might consult them on your behalf?

Russ

 

[gazz]

I can feel a bloody rant coming on now...

This country used to produce some of the finest engineers on the planet. Sadly, years of under-investment in the education system has led to the sorry state we are in now, where young mechanics don't seem to understand how the machines they are repairing actually work. When I went to college, many moons ago, to study motor vehicle technology we had a fascinating lecturer. Doug Wragg was his name, but of course we nicknamed him "oily". Oily had three main tools in his armoury - a compression tester, a cylinder leakage tester and, his favourite, a vacuum gauge. He would rant on at length about the virtues of the vacuum gauge and the myriad of engine faults it was capable of identifying. Most of this remains with me today, although I suspect old Oily is long gone.
Certainly computers have their place today in diagnosing engine faults, but it is important not to lose sight of the fundamental aspects of what makes an engine work. Anyone who purports to be a Mercedes specialist will be aware of valve seat problems associated with early M271 engines. Old Oily would have found the problem very quickly with his first tool of choice, the vacuum gauge. His other two favourites would have confirmed his initial suspicions within fifteen minutes. And he probably never lived long enough to see a 271 engine....

What has probably happened here is the tech plugs in a diagnostic tool. Tech identifies a single cylinder misfire. Tech removes coil and plug from offending cylinder. Tech swaps coil and plug with another cylinder, clears codes and repeats test. Misfire remains on original cylinder. Tech assumes ecu coil driver is US and goes for a replacement ecu - It's a fault that can happen! He lost sight of the fact that the problem could still be in the hard metal stuff...

I'm sorry for the rant, but it is Friday, and I have had a little drinky.

 

[thefootster]

Mark, I've already done that, I've actually spent the best part of two grand in the garage now and when I went through the paperwork I worked out that I've been charged over £800 for the bits that I previously mentioned.

rf065, I've already tried that but their attitude was that they're not working on my car for nothing. Despite the fact that they haven't actually fixed anything and spent nearly three days working out what the problem actually is, I still wouldn't expect the diagnosis for free, but as per the Supply of Goods and Services Act, the time taken to diagnose has to be 'reasonable'. And as Gazz said, it looks like they've went down completely the wrong avenue when trying to diagnose the problem which could probably come under the umberela of unreasonableness based on incompetence - more to the point, incompetence at my expense. I've had a look on their website and it doesn't look like they're regulated by any other authority either.

Has anyone else had any issues like this or have any advice on which course of action to take as after reading some of your responses I'm now seriously of the opinion that the garage is definitely taking the piss a bit.

 

[davidjpowell]

I've paid similar to have an oil leak diagnosed. To be fair to the chap it was awkward - an oil cooler deep in the V below the Turbo. He eventually built a bypass kit so he could run it with the Turbo removed.

I was always slightly uncomfortable and have always wondered would another specialist diagnosed it straight away. One of those things, but by far the largest bill I have ever seen from a car.