Diagnosis labour - what is 'reasonable'?

[markjay]

I am not being unsympathetic, but he garage didn't charge you £800 for fault diagnosis, they charged you £800 for replacing parts which may or may not resolve the issue (and, in the event, didn't), and I understand that you have agreed to this?

I think it is all down to what has been said.

If it was "your problem is a faulty ECU, we will replace it and it will cure the problem", then you are right and they should put back your old ECU and not charge a penny. Same goes for anything else they replaced.

But if they said "we recommend to change the ECU, as it might be causing the issue, but we are not sure, so you should be aware that it might not resolve the problem" then this is a different story.

 

[markjay]

Nearly 20 years ago I took a brand new Vauxhall to the dealer with complaint about pulling to the left.

They told me it needed four wheel alignment and that it was not covered by warranty.

I agreed to pay for the four wheel alignment on the understanding that it will cure the issue.

They carried out the four wheel alignment and the pulling was still there.

They accepted that they did not fix the problem and refunded me in full.

So it is all down to what has been said / agreed.

From your post I gather that you agreed to have parts replaced with no gurantee of success. However, you hoped that the gamble will pay off, which it did not, and now you are upset.

If this is the case, then the garage failed badly in managing customer's expectations, but I am not sure it is an issue for Trading Standards or SCC.

As always... your best bet is to try and reach some compromise with the garage, there is still work to be done on your car and they will want to keep your custom.

Failing that, I would walk away and put it down to experience.

 

[tintinmt]

Having suffered a few similar incidents and come to the same conclusions regarding the general competency of garage mechanics, the only form of defence I can find is to be clear with the garage before work starts that you will only pay if the fault is fixed.
It shouldn't have to be this way but it is.
Of course you can help yourself by trying to use a proven competent mechanic in the first place, but I have to say that I have had poor diagnosis from garages that I have trusted for years and from garages that have great reputations.

 

[thefootster]

Just to clarify, no other parts have actually been replaced except the ECU (which was later taken out and my old one put back in). Everything else was the mechanic/technician tinkering around with the car trying to work out what the problem was (changing leads & plugs around etc). Therefore, now that my original ECU has been replaced, 'nothing' has actually been replaced on my car.
I am not a mechanic/technician and made it perfectly to the garage that I am reliant on their expertise to resolve the problem. They then followed what appears to be a wrong avenue, whilst all the time the clock was ticking at my expense. The garage actually told me that they would refund me if it wasn't the ECU (in the regions of £400) but when I was later established that the fault was nothing to do with the ECU, they then said that they wouldn't be refunding me anything at all because the money I would have been due back had all been used up by labour costs for the further diagnosis (I beleive that this was the compression test, which arguably should have been done much earlier) required to find the problem. Hence, my bill now being over £800 and I am no further forward, just over £800 out of pocket.

 

[KennyN]

the garage have a suspicion that the one of the valve seats must be damaged and have advised getting a new cylinder head.

Not the quote i would expect from a specialist.

What were the readings from the comp test ?

A new head for a damaged valve seat , can`t it be recut and the valve refaced ? if that is the real reason for the misfire.

I think the "specialist" is trying to get you to go elsewhere.

I no actual parts were purchased then £800 is a lot of labour , especially at an independent.

Kenny

 

[thefootster]

Not the quote i would expect from a specialist.

What were the readings from the comp test ?

A new head for a damaged valve seat , can`t it be recut and the valve refaced ? if that is the real reason for the misfire.

I think the "specialist" is trying to get you to go elsewhere.

I no actual parts were purchased then £800 is a lot of labour , especially at an independent.

Kenny

Kenny, the readout said that cylinder 3 was firing at 16% and all the rest were at least above 80%. The garage only 'suspect' sofar that it is the valve seat and I think recommended a new cylinder head to cover all eventualities. The garage appears to be quite a well known Indy in Birmingham.

 

[paul_c]

Sounds like you've just paid £800 in educating an elf on how to diagnose engine issues the long way round. I'd certainly see if they can knock a good proportion of the bill off. If they quote too high for a cylinder head swap or fix existing (its kinda a similar amount of work) then it would be worth asking around a few different garages.

One other thought - I thought that a cylinder leakdown test pretty much 100% determines the issue since it puts compressed air into the cylinder, then you follow the air and see where it comes out (or if it all stays in). For example, air hissing out of the exhaust = exhaust valve issue. Air coming out of inlet tract = inlet valve issue. Air entering coolant or oil or another cylinder = head gasket.

 

[Terry_]

You don't need a new cylinder head!!!!!!!
The head just needs repairing with new seats/ possibly guides, and modified valve springs.
Then you should be good to go

 

[thefootster]

You don't need a new cylinder head!!!!!!!
The head just needs repairing with new seats/ possibly guides, and modified valve springs.
Then you should be good to go

Sweet! I don't suppose you'd know roughly how much it'll cost me do you? I'm still trying recover from being fleeced by the garage!

 

[st13phil]

Sadly, years of under-investment in the education system has led to the sorry state we are in now, where young mechanics don't seem to understand how the machines they are repairing actually work.

The point about lack of understanding about how the machine works is very true. The other factor at play is that "repair by replacement" is pretty much the main approach used in the motor trade today (with rare but notable exceptions).

My father (who's just turned 85) served his apprenticeship as a motor mechanic immediately post-war, when most cars on the road were manufactured pre-war. The scarce availability of replacement parts meant that repair, rather than replacement was the order of the day. He had to learn most of the skills that you would need in a machine shop: milling, turning, grinding, boring and hand fitting; he learnt welding and brazing, how to remanufacture white metal bearings and many other techniques. Most of all though, he learnt how and why the cars he had to repair worked.

In the 1970's he suffered a back injury which stopped him working on the bench, and by the early 1980's he was doing some teaching for the Motor Vehicle C&G course at the local Tech College. I remember him coming home one night after a teaching session in despair. Two of the students on the course were at the time "experienced technicians" working in Main Dealer workshops, yet neither of them could use an internal micrometer to measure a cylinder bore for wear and ovality, and he'd found out that evening that neither of them had a clue how to shim a diff to set up the backlash after repair either. Yet they were regular top bonus earners at their respective dealerships - presumably because they could unbolt a component and bolt up a replacement quicker than most.

Unfortunately, the lack of knowledge is not something new. It's been getting worse for years. Cars are more complex now than they've ever been, but if you don't appreciate how they should work, how can you hope to repair them when they don't except by trial and error, or by resort to a manufacturer knowledge base?

 

[KennyN]

That is if there is a genuine issue with compression / valves / rings.

I would do (or get done) an old school compression test with actual PSI readings across all the cylinders , there is no point diving into the motor without factual figures. This could be done at home with an inexpensive tester. All plugs out - gauge in - spin the motor - take reading - repeat for the rest of the pots.

The majority of the cost of repairing a knackered valve / seat will be the labour and new gaskets etc.

Kenny

 

[bolide]

If they claim to be Mercedes specialists then you would expect them to be expert in diagnosis. If they fail to diagnose the problem due to ineptitude I can't see any good reason to pay them

Nick Froome

 

[BlackC55]

Sweet! I don't suppose you'd know roughly how much it'll cost me do you? I'm still trying recover from being fleeced by the garage!

It depends on what has to be done.

I would expect £800-£1k

 

[thefootster]

If they claim to be Mercedes specialists then you would expect them to be expert in diagnosis. If they fail to diagnose the problem due to ineptitude I can't see any good reason to pay them

Nick Froome

It's getting them to admit that they have mucked up due of lack of knowledge. Not only do they advertise as flagship indy Mercedes specialists but they also didn't back down one inch when I asked them what exactly I'd been charged over £800 for - according to them I was told that the technician had over 35yrs experience and they'd done everything right. But as far as I can establish they have followed a completely wrong route and a compression test should have been carried out almost at the outset instead of 3 days of labour later.

 

[thefootster]

Thanks very much for your replies and advice folks, very much appreciated!

I've had another chat with the garage and they are now happy to refund just under £250 of my £800, which is better than nothing. Now we're getting somewhere at last!
I've discussed the way forward with where to go from here and they advised me to source a new cylinder head and they'll fit it as to have mine repaired mine will mean them taking my cylinder head off and sending it away, which could take up to 3 weeks and might end up costing more.

Does anyone know anywhere else that could actually repair MY cylinder head inhouse? Ideally somewhere between Birmingham and Manchester but if I need to go further afield to get it sorted I will.
Failing that, does anyone know where I could source a replacement cylinder head for a C230k - Engine No: 271948 30087145

Thanks in advance!

 

[trapperjohn]

Preston any good to you?l I do know an excellent place I'll have to get back with name and number. (Its me age yer know) Hope you get somewhere closer though.

 

[thefootster]

Preston any good to you?l I do know an excellent place I'll have to get back with name and number. (Its me age yer know) Hope you get somewhere closer though.

Preston is fine, I'm only 30miles along the road in Manchester, I just don't normally get back up there until a Friday but can definitely work around that!

 

[trapperjohn]

Roger that. Blackburn Brother's is the name of the place. You walk into the machine shop and are confronted with the smell of lathe coolant and the owner in coveralls. He will test the CH and talk you through what he does. You can park bang outside on the street so no struggling about the place carrying the CH.

Blackburn Bros Ltd
Engine Rebuilders
Moorbrook Street
Preston
Lancashire
PR1 7EX View on map
T: 01772 822 703
F: 01772 200 969

Hope that helps.

 

[BlackC55]

Thanks very much for your replies and advice folks, very much appreciated! I've had another chat with the garage and they are now happy to refund just under £250 of my £800, which is better than nothing. Now we're getting somewhere at last! I've discussed the way forward with where to go from here and they advised me to source a new cylinder head and they'll fit it as to have mine repaired mine will mean them taking my cylinder head off and sending it away, which could take up to 3 weeks and might end up costing more. Does anyone know anywhere else that could actually repair MY cylinder head inhouse? Ideally somewhere between Birmingham and Manchester but if I need to go further afield to get it sorted I will. Failing that, does anyone know where I could source a replacement cylinder head for a C230k - Engine No: 271948 30087145 Thanks in advance!

3 weeks for a head overhaul!

We usually get ours done same day.

 

[neilrr]

Sounds like you (the OP) needs a new indie.