Diesels

[Deleted member 65149]

Hi, thanks for all the comments/disagreements, I have decided to buy a CLK 320 petrol engine because it seems diesels are not good for short journeys. I was looking at the CLK 350 but the M272 engine seems to have problems with the balance shaft's, so I thought I would stick with the 320 as it has the M112 which I have several of these engine powered cars in the past.
Many Thanks.
Terry.

Well done Terry - it's a great car.

 

[meeeb]

Agreed definitely not. It took 4,500 miles to cause enough damage to our diesel Fiat 500 for it to need the entire top half of the engine replaced. When we sold it back the supplying dealer 2000 miles later, the top of the engine was on its way out for a second time. We were using it exclusively for short journeys of less than 1.5 miles.

Luckily, Fiat recognised that this was their problem and bought the car back off us at a premium.

I won't be buying another diesel as long as DPFs are fitted (unless they work their way around the problem).

This is a quite interesting piece, albeit a couple of years old, dealing specifically with Fiat 500 diesels.

BBC Watchdog: Is your diesel filter out of kilter? - Consumer Forum

It is folly to rely on what car salesmen tell you. They'll probably tell you what you want to hear rather than what you need to know. I suspect, from what I've heard, that many people make car buying decisions purely on the aesthetics of the vehicle and its basic mechanical attributes, even paying the price on the windscreen without haggling.

The purchaser has surely some responsibility to research before buying, and to read the handbook when bought?

 

[gIzzE]

I haven't been on for a couple of weeks, but what the **** have I missed!!??

A truly classic thread it seems.


600psi Chippendale!! Whoooohaaaa!!



BHP is everything, torque is just the figure you multiply with your rpm to get the BHP figure.

I think too many people are comparing older diesels with older petrols when looking at running costs.
1.9tdi vs 1.8 petrol, 318tds vs 318i. They both did the same 0-60, the bother had the same top speed yet the petrol did 25mpg and the diesel did 55mpg.
It was a no brainer!

However, times have changed, we want 0-60mph times of a Porsche from 15 years back, and as such diesels are actually doing no better MPG wise, on paper maybe, but in real life probably worse.
Petrols have got considerably better though, some of the cars I have owned that are similar, not comparing a 2 litre 4cyl with a 3.2 litre V6 petrol and saying "Oooh, the diesel is so much more economical."
No **** Sherlock!

535d 344bhp 0-60mph in 5.7 seconds - 26mpg over 12 months and 28,000 miles.
Vs.
335i 380bhp 0-60mph in 4.6 seconds - 28mpg over 12 months and 19,000 miles.

3.2fsi quattro avant - 28mpg average
3.0tdi FWD avant - 31mpg average

E320 V6 estate 29mpg average
E350cdi estate 33mpg average

530d touring 31mpg average
530i touring 29mpg average

The interesting thing though was on cold sub 10 mile journeys the petrol was slightly better MPG wise than the big diesels.
Only on a long run that the diesel starts to claw it back, it always took to around the A11 Brandon roundabout which is approx. 20 odd miles from me, and even then I have never had a diesel with the same power get more than around 15% better MPG wise.

Then you have to factor in fuel costs, for me doing 20k miles a year the difference was about £6 a week.

Now when you consider most of these are depreciating at between £300-800 a month, then you have £100 for servicing and tyres etc. Insurance at £50, and the fuel itself at £400 a month, trying to say it is saving you money is just stupid.

If you prefer a diesel fair enough, but don't justify it based on money saving!


And even with a smaller 4cyl petrol I am not sure the differences are all that either.
I wrote a review on here for the new A3, had the 140bhp 2.0tdi and the 130bhp 1.4Tfsi petrol, the petrol was so much nicer to drive, gearbox, clutch, rev range, sound and balance, nice and light up front.
I did the same 90 mile round trip in both and the diesel returned 48mpg, the petrol returned...........48mpg.


And no diesel sounds as nice as a petrol, I think many have forgotten just how refined a big V6 petrol is, diesels are getting better, but don't kid yourself.


And torque is just the fact it is forced injection, you can get a nice turbo'd petrol if you like a lazy engine, I think many get NA vs FI confused with diesel vs petrol.
Plus many have forgotten how to drive a nice NA petrol as well.


All in all, the diesel lovers convince themselves they are saving money, they are deluded.
If petrol was 99p a litre how many would honestly prefer diesel??

 

[Smatt]

I haven't been on for a couple of weeks, but what the **** have I missed!!??

All very good points.
I agree absolutely & would love a petrol 350

But, if you are buying used, then one does not really have a simple petrol vs diesel choice.
Virtually all used middle range MBs are diesel. If you want a very niche product like a used 7 seater, then there is even less choice.
You might say the answer is to buy new. Well I would rather a loaded 3yr old diesel E class than a new petrol Picasso similarly loaded which is approximately the same price.

 

[gIzzE]

All very good points.
I agree absolutely & would love a petrol 350

But, if you are buying used, then one does not really have a simple petrol vs diesel choice.
Virtually all used middle range MBs are diesel. If you want a very niche product like a used 7 seater, then there is even less choice.
You might say the answer is to buy new. Well I would rather a loaded 3yr old diesel E class than a new petrol Picasso similarly loaded which is approximately the same price.

You're right, I waited nearly 6 months for an E350 petrol to show up, two did in that time and when I called them they had sold it same day.
The second dealer said he had more hits on that estate through autotrader than any other car he had sold and he nearly didn't take it in because it wasn't a diesel.

I then had the same with teh 212 E350, in the end I went diesel, there was over 100 E50 cdi estates for sale in the UK and only 2 E350cgi's, however, I paid £23k for my E350cdi and both petrols were over £30k.
As much as I prefer petrol I was not going to pay nearly £300 a month more, or double, to have it, so the diesel won.

Such a shame though, and it is one of the reasons I have stopped buying 1-2 year old cars, there is nothing that genuinely excites me that I can afford to run. I would love an E63 but the serving costs are horrific.

I am waiting for a 550i sport touring to show up at the right price, neighbour has one and is getting 28mpg average, which is only 4mpg behind the 535d it replaced, and with 400bhp and that V8 growl he is over the moon with it.

It does sound sublime!

I can't drop £45k on a new car and enjoy it, for me to loose £1000 a month on a car takes the enjoyment away, £30k on a year or two old one I can live with, but it does mean I am pretty much left with a choice of diesel or diesel.

 

[Alex]

I can't drop £45k on a new car and enjoy it, for me to loose £1000 a month on a car takes the enjoyment away, £30k on a year or two old one I can live with, but it does mean I am pretty much left with a choice of diesel or diesel.

Depreciation is only there when you sell the car. But if you like it, why not then keep it and enjoy it? Saves a lot of money over leasing.

 

[gIzzE]

I just don't like the 35% hit in year one.
Plus when you are doing 20-40k miles a year 2-3 years is really as long as I want it, not only for financial reasons ben when you spend that sort of time in the car you fancy a change.

I can handle buying a £70k car for £45k at a year or so old, just the thought of buying say an E350cgi for new for £45,000 and then selling it with 100,000+ miles 3 years later and getting £16k or so makes me squirm.

New cars are for companies that can write it off against profits, contract hire firms and people who don't care about money, imho of course.

There are of course exceptions, but as a general rule of thumb new cars just don't wrk for me, unless I am hiring it.

 

[Alex]

I just don't like the 35% hit in year one.
Plus when you are doing 20-40k miles a year 2-3 years is really as long as I want it, not only for financial reasons ben when you spend that sort of time in the car you fancy a change.

I can handle buying a £70k car for £45k at a year or so old, just the thought of buying say an E350cgi for new for £45,000 and then selling it with 100,000+ miles 3 years later and getting £16k or so makes me squirm.

New cars are for companies that can write it off against profits, contract hire firms and people who don't care about money, imho of course.

There are of course exceptions, but as a general rule of thumb new cars just don't wrk for me, unless I am hiring it.

I wasn't necessarily talking about buying new vs. used. I was suggesting that if you like a car, you should buy it and enjoy it as opposed to constantly thinking of what it's going to cost in X years when the times comes to sell.

Personally, I couldn't afford a CL AMG from new so I buy it a decade old. It still feels like a £100k car. No amount of depreciation is going to affect that.

 

[gIzzE]

Personally, I couldn't afford a CL AMG from new so I buy it a decade old. It still feels like a £100k car. No amount of depreciation is going to affect that.

To be honest, after the S212 E350cdi left me feeling cold I sold it and bought an older C Class estate while deciding what to get next. It made me realise that I don't actually enjoy new cars any more than older ones, I then bought RPE2's ML270 off him and have been enjoying that a lot, been a year now nearly and no thoughts of changing it, plus we got rid of Fiona's BMW X1, that is now an old 2.8 Z3 and I love it, appreciating rather than depreciating.
Oh, and found out it has an OBC yesterday, and it is showing 35.7mpg, not bad for a 2.8 litre straight six. I thought it seemed to cover a few miles for very little money filling it up.

And funnily enough I do keep looking at faclifted CL500s and 55's, as it is a car that has aged beautifully I feel. And so much car for the money.

As I am getting older I am just not fussed about having the latest model, and I am now at that age where I think older models are in many ways better.


Oh, and forgot to say, as it is an older car I don't keep looking at the mileage, which is nice.
Bought it with 90k on it and now at 112k I think, and makes no difference. Used to always worry about the miles vs depreciation.

 

[geraldrobins]

Interesting opinions gizze, but opinions. where did your mpg comparison figures come from???
Maybe Im deluded!!!

 

[gIzzE]

Interesting opinions gizze, but opinions. where did your mpg comparison figures come from???
Maybe Im deluded!!!

From cars I have owned, and over a good 20k miles or more too.
Apart from the A3's, they were both demo cars.

But my point is, many go from a 3 litre petrol to a 2 litre diesel and then rave about how much more economical it is, but you have to compare apples with apples.

 

[Dryce]

Interesting opinions gizze, but opinions. where did your mpg comparison figures come from???
Maybe Im deluded!!!

Numbers are meaningless unless people say how they came about.

If you drive hard with a powerful turbo-diesel you'll get low MPG. It's converting fuel to power and if you ask it for a lot of power it will convert a lot of fuel.

If somebody gets about 28mpg from a petrol and about 32mpg from a diesel with equivalent powertrain and use then that's about 14% difference. Funnily enough diesel contains about that sort of extra amount of energy because it's about that much denser than petrol.

 

[geraldrobins]

I'm all for anyones opinions and experience but at times some are very dogmatic and seem to criticize others for their opinions and choices.

 

[theogeor]

I am a bit disappointed in the way this discussion is going . This is not about diesel via petrol but there was a specific question if diesels are suitable for short journeys. A very specific question. And the reality is irrespective of fuel consumption is that modern diesels with DPF are more likely to be a lot more problematic compared with a petrol one. Even if we assume that a diesel will be more economical the TCO (total cost of ownership) needs to be calculated and that should include not only purchase cost and fuel cost but also potential overheads if the DPF goes wrong (I am not going to even try to calculate the hassle factor if things goes wrong because DPF did not regenerate ; my wife will put a big figure on that by the way) But in any case here is a summary

1. Diesels for like to like engines i.e. similar generation and similar capacity are more likely to have better fuel consumption especially for long/motorway driving
2. Diesels for like to like engines as above are not not going to have fuel consumption savings compared with petrol for very short trips (5 miles or less for example)
3. Petrol engines are smoother than diesels and have less noise levels (I don't think there is a dispute about that)
4. Modern turbo petrol engines have similar torque levels like a modern tubro Diesel engines and both are equally fast for like to like comparison

At the end of the day we are all individuals and we can pick and choose the brand/model/engine/fuel type /options /colour that makes us happier so lets not forget that . No point of arguing in what is supposed to be a friendly forum. The things I like most is factual statements from people who actually have first hand experience and more importantly through about it before writing any comments and above all they are not insulting others


Regards


Theo

 

[Sp!ke]

All I know is that my diesel car is much more economical than my petrol car but it also only has 45bhp and sounds like a bucket of nails.

For me at least it boils down to two basic driving needs. The first is to economically satisfy a transport requirement (diesel) and the second is for driving pleasure (petrol).

 

[gIzzE]

I'm all for anyones opinions and experience but at times some are very dogmatic and seem to criticize others for their opinions and choices.

I'm not criticising anyone for their choice, and I definitely don't presume other peoples experiences match mine. All I can do is relay my experience of diesel vs petrol, and in my experience running costs no longer play a part.
However, I do believe that many have forgotten just how refined a nice 6 cylinder petrol engine is. You get used to a diesel after a few weeks, and it is not till you get back in a Merc or BMW 6cyl that you realise how big a gap their still is.

I don't get why someone else's view would upset you anyway?
We all make the decision we make, and had our reasons for doing so.


And I was sort of agreeing with most, saying that I had also bought diesel because I too am caught in the UKs mentality of 'it has to be diesel'.
And I was trying to explain, which is what the thread was about, that "No, diesels are not a good idea for short journeys." by giving my examples over the last 9 years and 250,000 miles.

 

[Simzy]

My experience of petrol was good in the BMW, it was a 2.5 ltr 325i coupe model really fast nice and smooth. It wasn't quiet though because the previous owner installed a k&n filter so had a moderate growl to it. The fuel consumption though was off the chart and the mpg was around 18 mpg, ridiculous in my opinion. I was forever filling up the tank. When I got my current c220 cdi I was immediately surprised by the loudness of a diesel. It sounded like a bag of nails but after a while I have come to like it. The mpg is around 40 in this car though which is a 2.3 ltr engine and I can honestly say it feels just as quick, as soon as turbo kicks in it flys Believe me. When I have had other petrols like my megane and my ford focus they were constantly having issues and I mean constantly. This is why in my experience I prefer a diesel because the only issues you get with diesels are sensors and such, the engine just feels so rugged and safe.

 

[219]

You haven't had injector seal failure then - yet .

 

[Simzy]

You haven't had injector seal failure then - yet .

Black Death yes .. Easy fix

 

[Londonscottish]

However, I do believe that many have forgotten just how refined a nice 6 cylinder petrol engine is. You get used to a diesel after a few weeks, and it is not till you get back in a Merc or BMW 6cyl that you realise how big a gap their .

This was certainly my experience last year after returning the loaner W212 E250 CDI I had when my W211 E 500 was being repaired.

I liked just about everything about the 212 except for the noise and vibration. When I first sat in the 500 again it felt antiquated. But then I fired it up and, to me, it was bliss to hear the creamy smooth V8 once again.

Having said that that's not really comparing like with like - the V6 280/320/350 CDI are a different kettle of fish and much more in keeping with the character of an E IMHO.