Do we have a property lawyer on board?

[Red C220]

The previous occupants of our house moved our garden fence back into wasteland approximately 12 years ago extending the garden by 3 meters. In November last year the fence needed to be replaced with new (in the same place as the extended fence). I replaced it, like for like with close board fencing.

One of our neighbours has now made a complaint to planning suggesting we've land grabbed (not their land I add) last year without planning permission. They site the fact it's a new fence backs up their complaint.

The land is actually owned by a trust (not the local council) and they don't maintain it and are not interested by the fact it's been acquired as garden.

There are two pairs of semi detached houses, two to the left of us who moved their fences back over 15 years ago. Ours was moved up to their new boundary a couple of year later.

Due to the topography of the land it isn't possible for house 4 to do the same. House 4 has complained we have extra land but not made a complaint about the other two houses.

A planning officer has been in touch and was quite amicable, however we now have to prove the fence existed where it is over 10 years ago. We can't - we just don't have anything that would be considered evidence - photos, documents, mainly because we didn't move it.

Where does this leave us as it's now being suggested we're going to have to apply for retrospective planning permission, which should it fail, will lead to us having to move the fence back to it's original boundary.

 

[Palfrem]

Do you need planning permission for a 1.8 metre fence?

 

[Red C220]

Depending on where the fence is sited and if there are listings on the property you may need permission for anything over 1m. That doesn't effect us as the boundary in question is not even with our neighbour.

You need planning permission for a change of boundary.

If the change took place over 10 years previous it is deemed as owned by you and permission is no longer required (planning officer informed me of this).

What we're stuck with is how do I prove a fence was erected where it was and when, that has since been replaced with new?

 

[brucemillar]

If it has been there for over 9 years then I do not believe you require any permission as you can claim it as yours. Not to sure about the height but I believe up to 2 meters is fine without permission.

Have a look for some old family photos that may back up your case.

Sent from my iPhone using MBClub UK

 

[Red C220]

I
Have a look for some old family photos that may back up your case.

10 years is the magic number.

A photo would easily solve the issue, however we have nothing that could possibly date what has been done. We've been through all the family albums.

Our rear garden is very elevated and most of the photos simply don't have the fence in them!

We simply can't find any proof! It's very frustrating.

 

[brucemillar]

10 years is the magic number.

A photo would easily solve the issue, however we have nothing that could possibly date what has been done. We've been through all the family albums.

Our rear garden is very elevated and most of the photos simply don't have the fence in them!

We simply can't find any proof! It's very frustrating.

Ok

So state it has been there for 12 years and ask for proof that it has not!!

Sent from my iPhone using MBClub UK

 

[Bellow]

we now have to prove the fence existed where it is over 10 years ago. We can't - we just don't have anything that would be considered evidence - photos, documents, mainly because we didn't move it.

Isn't it for them to prove their case? Isn't it for them to prove that the fence, 10 years ago, was somewhere else?

 

[A-AvantGarde]

Isn't it easy to demonstrate from the garden itself (in terms of how it looks and it's 'maturity'). If you'd only just extended it into the wasteland wouldn't it just look like it's still wasteland as opposed to being a defined part of your garden?

My parents had an issue with the boundary of the last property they sold where their driveway, shared driveway to two properties and their front garden wasn't showing on the land registry maps. It only got picked up a week or so before completion.

Luckily their issue was much easier to resolve, someone previoulsy had incorrectly marked up the land registry maps. A surveyor came out and took lots of photos which they submitted as evidence to prove that it was part of the property (e.g. same boundary wall, same type of plants as elswhere around the property etc).

 

[Sp!ke]

could the previous owner be contacted and support your claim?

 

[camerafodder]

Does google earth show anything? Some of the shots are a few years old.

 

[Kingy68]

If you have neighbours (or local properties/owners) who can validate when the fence was originally moved and are prepared to have a trip to the solicitors to sign a witnessed statement confirming that (at your expense) then that should suffice.
I've had to do this in the past with an unadopted (access) road to a property and with a similar claim of common land. It was in 1998 though, so I'm assuming it would still be the same. We did not supply photos as we didn't have them, but had two neighbours who could confirm the road had provided access to our propoerty for over 20 years and the same neighbours confirmed (common) land that was fenced off had been fenced and tended for 11 years.

 

[martin_a]

Google Earth?

 

[renault12ts]

Look up Google earth...that should show the fence before last year.

 

[Sp!ke]

Good point..

you can select the year in google earth and look back in time.

 

[Red C220]

Ok

So state it has been there for 12 years and ask for proof that it has not!!

Sent from my iPhone using MBClub UK

Unfortunately the burden of proof is ours

Isn't it for them to prove their case? Isn't it for them to prove that the fence, 10 years ago, was somewhere else?

See above

Isn't it easy to demonstrate from the garden itself (in terms of how it looks and it's 'maturity'). If you'd only just extended it into the wasteland wouldn't it just look like it's still wasteland as opposed to being a defined part of your garden?

My parents had an issue with the boundary of the last property they sold where their driveway, shared driveway to two properties and their front garden wasn't showing on the land registry maps. It only got picked up a week or so before completion.

Luckily their issue was much easier to resolve, someone previoulsy had incorrectly marked up the land registry maps. A surveyor came out and took lots of photos which they submitted as evidence to prove that it was part of the property (e.g. same boundary wall, same type of plants as elswhere around the property etc).

We've had the planning officer around and despite it being clear the garden is mature - there;s little tell it being 8 years mature or 10 years mature - it's the 10 years we need proof.

could the previous owner be contacted and support your claim?

We can try that route. We don't have a forwarding address I guess we could contact solicitors to obtain it.

Does google earth show anything? Some of the shots are a few years old.

Unfortunately no - there is a lot of tree cover here and it is very undefined

Look up Google earth...that should show the fence before last year.

Tried that - no good and very poor Google earth pictures of our property - the current ones are least 5 years old.

 

[renault12ts]

You can try for the older (or newer ones) by pressing the clock with an arrow symbol...could get a photo taken in the winter.

Just had a look...there are several older photos of Surrey.

 

[st13phil]

Google earth was going to be my suggestion too, but that may or may not have an image that shows the fence position more than 10 years ago.

My other suggestion would be to ask your neighbour (#2?) if they'd provide an affidavit confirming when the fence was originally moved.

 

[@MARK]

Failing Google Earth, try Bing maps. They have a Birds Eye View that is an aerial shot rather than a straight down satellite view so may be much clearer.

 

[martin_a]

The fact they are old helps your case surely? all you need to show is that the fence was their before the complaint came in so it isn't new.

Beyond that, neighbours like a party? got any snaps that might have your fence in the background?

Perhaps convince them that if you have to move your then they may well be next so it is in their interests to help you fight it?

 

[brucemillar]

Does google earth show anything? Some of the shots are a few years old.

Excellent point YOu can also regress Google Earth images.