DOCTORS OR TRAINS

[markjay]

As far as trains go, I think it’s the last hurrah for drivers. If any job is ripe for automation it’s train drivers. For everyone other than drivers, it’s got a lot going for it.
One of the issues stopping more capacity on the trains is the need to have reasonable gaps between trains. A lot of this is due to legacy stuff linked to drivers being in control. The other issues are also legacy - can’t have double height trains due to old Victorian railway bridges and can’t have longer trains due to station platforms.
The unions are doing a good job though but in this case they are flogging an old (iron) horse.

Doctors, I have a bit more sympathy with but don’t know enough to have a strong opinion.

I would agree that rail workers have a long history of industrial action, I remember the strikes when the rear guard role was replaced by CCTV cameras, the Unions claimed at the time that it was about 'safety', not about pay or jobs, etc. In fact it's not only in the UK - in the US, they still had a 'Fireman' on modern Diesel and electric trains well into the eighties because the Unions threatened industrial action if the firemen were made redundant when trains moved away from steam and coal after the War.

 

[markjay]

Mate of mine worked on the railways but the money wasn’t that good so he did the knowledge and became a taxi driver.

The Knowledge is an amazing thing, back in the day I used to be impressed when jumping into a black cab and telling the cabbie the name of a street on the other side of the city and he'd get me there without a map. Mini-cab drivers, on the other hand, had an A-Z open on the front passenger seat, and they were driving dangerously while reading the map and cursing in foreign languages....

That been said, isn't the Knowledge a bit like the slide ruler - brilliant, but totally obsolete now? The Uber app does all the work these days.

 

[Darrell]

The Knowledge is an amazing thing, back in the day I used to be impressed when jumping into a black cab and telling the cabbie the name of a street on the other side of the city and he'd get me there without a map. Mini-cab drivers, on the other hand, had an A-Z open on the front passenger seat, and they were driving dangerously while reading the map and cursing in foreign languages....

That been said, isn't the Knowledge a bit like the slide ruler - brilliant, but totally obsolete now? The Uber app does all the work these days.

Don’t mention UBER to a cabbie!!

TBH, if you want to be a black cab driver and earn the big bucks then you’ll still have to do the knowledge. It’ll never be obselete while black cabs are on the road.

 

[Petrol Pete]

I remember a while back when I had a stint commuting to Brussels , I had to get from Paddington to St Pancras international in short order and always jumped into a black cab on the rank for this trip.

One time the drive turned left and got me a bit concerned with here he was going. I thought he had mis heard me so I questioned the route he was taking.........

I wont do that again . He was being as polite as he could but the way he said one word , "roadworks" add to that the tone of his voice plus the fact I saw some London streets I never knew existed AND I got to the station on time taught me to shut the F up (probably what he wanted to say !) .

The 'knowledge' really is something else . But sadly not as important as it once was . Time moves on.

 

[clk320x]

Another one of these threads… please dear lord no.

FWIW having a good knowledge of the industry - overall I think the consultant/GP pay on the whole is ‘decent’ (not comparable to countries with private health systems) - junior doctor pay on the other hand is quite low for what it is.

Which is why many choose to move abroad for better weather and pay once CCT is completed, or in an increasing number of cases now even beforehand.

 

[Darrell]

The cabbie has to know the quickest route between 2 points which often means using back streets etc so they spend a lot of time learning them. Problem is that not they’ve all got planters at the end of them!!

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

Another one of these threads… please dear lord no.

FWIW having a good knowledge of the industry - overall I think the consultant/GP pay on the whole is ‘decent’ (not comparable to countries with private health systems) - junior doctor pay on the other hand is quite low for what it is.

Which is why many choose to move abroad for better weather and pay once CCT is completed, or in an increasing number of cases now even beforehand.

Do they move abroad? The stats disprove that theory. Doctors can’t easily move to Europe where the pay is lower, and the national closed shop is strong.

How many doctors do you know that have taken their kids out of school, kissed by bye to Grandma and set off to Portugal or the States?

And then there’s the ethnicity thing. 40% of our doctors are Asian heritage. Are they really up for another international move? To a country where it isn’t a civil service job for life. And where Doctors are sued for their mistakes.

 

[markjay]

You don't want to underpay your Army, for fear that the soldiers will rebel. You also don't want to overpay your Army, or you'll get soldiers who enlisted for all the wrong reasons, and who - when ordered to go over the top - will say "sod that".

The same applies to vocational jobs - clergy, teachers, and also firefighters, police, and doctors.

You want to pay them slightly under what a similar 'civilian' job would pay. If you pay then even less, you'll lose good motivated people who simply can't afford to take the job. If you pay them more, you'll get the wrong sort who are only in it for the money but don't give a toss about education or about saving lives etc.

But if you pay just slightly under 'market prices', then those people who are highly motivated will aoply because for them the job satisfaction well-compensates for the slightly-lower income, and these are exactly the kind of people that you want to see in vocational roles.

 

[clk320x]

Do they move abroad? The stats disprove that theory. Doctors can’t easily move to Europe where the pay is lower, and the national closed shop is strong.

How many doctors do you know that have taken their kids out of school, kissed by bye to Grandma and set off to Portugal or the States?

And then there’s the ethnicity thing. 40% of our doctors are Asian heritage. Are they really up for another international move? To a country where it isn’t a civil service job for life. And where Doctors are sued for their mistakes.

I know a fair few personally who have moved to the States, Aus and Canada. But yeah ultimately that doesn’t mean much.

I just feel that striking and trying to change the NHS pay rates will not get very far, it’s better to move somewhere that fits your requirements.

For me, it’s mainly about the weather…

 

[markjay]

I know a fair few personally who have moved to the States, Aus and Canada. But yeah ultimately that doesn’t mean much.

I just feel that complaining about the system we have here will not get very far, it’s better to move somewhere that fits your requirements.

For me, it’s mainly about the weather…

Most complaints I hear from junior doctors are not about pay or long shifts (though both are an issue for them), but about the gross misadminstration that presides over our chaotic NHS.

 

[ToeKnee]

So what is the standard pay for a junior doctor?

 

[TC350]

So what is the standard pay for a junior doctor?

 

[clk320x]

So what is the standard pay for a junior doctor?

An F1 is on about £14/hr

 

[ToeKnee]

Thanks, I was just curious about their pay.

 

[clk320x]

Thanks, I was just curious about their pay.

Fair enough

 

[TC350]

An F1 is on about £14/hr

I doubt that Pret offer their workers a 37 per cent enhancement for working nights, a weekend allowance for any work at the weekend, an availability allowance if required to be available on-call, and other potential pay premia. Pret's pay is the maximum, no matter how long they've worked there. The low Junior doctor's pay is just for their first year, whilst basically still training. For the second year it increases by about 16%. So a meaningless comparison.

 

[clk320x]

I doubt that Pret offer their workers a 37 per cent enhancement for working nights, a weekend allowance for any work at the weekend, an availability allowance if required to be available on-call, and other potential pay premia. Pret's pay is the maximum, no matter how long they've worked there. The low Junior doctor's pay is just for their first year, whilst basically still training. For the second year it increases by about 16%. So a meaningless comparison.

How many Prets are open overnight? What qualifications do you need? What are the hours like? How stressful is the job?

In my opinion - £14/hr is still an insult after admissions tests, sitting some of the most difficult subjects at A level and getting top marks, and spending 5-6 years at Med School.

 

[ChrisHGTV]

An F1 is on about £14/hr

That top poster above is a bit disingenuous. I bet if you look at the total package the Dr will be much better compensated. I wouldn’t think Pret pay 20.6% pension contribution.

 

[clk320x]

That top poster above is a bit disingenuous. I bet if you look at the total package the Dr will be much better compensated. I wouldn’t think Pret pay 20.6% pension contribution.

Of course, the poster is supposed to draw attention, and it compares hourly rates.

I’m not arguing one way or another.

I personally think it’s a poor starting wage for the qualifications you need and amount of work you put in.

You might disagree & that’s fine. I’m not one of those trying to change the system.

 

[markjay]

How many Prets are open overnight? What qualifications do you need? What are the hours like?

£14/hr is still an insult after admissions tests, sitting some of the most difficult subjects at A level and getting top marks, and spending 5-6 years at Med School.

The reason doctors endure that financially is the potential earnings further down the line.