DOCTORS OR TRAINS

[clk320x]

The reason doctors endure that financially is the potential earnings further down the line.

It’s more that the NHS knows it can bleed doctors dry at a poor wage for the first few years, as they are essentially forced to get their core training via them IMO.

I’m not saying similar doesn’t happen in other professions, but that doesn’t make either more or less right.

People keep mentioning pension contributions at 20%, I wonder how many doctors would rather take a 20% pay rise for foundation years - when they are just starting out and want to set up their lives, rather than a pension contribution they can access 40 years down the line.

 

[TC350]

How many Prets are open overnight? What qualifications do you need? What are the hours like? How stressful is the job?

Pret staff typically work between 6 and 12 hours a day. Their latest pay rise has taken team members up to £10.60 per hour. Baristas now earn up to £14.10 per hour with a Mystery Shopper Bonus. I couldn't find any mention of London Weighting for Pret staff. But junior doctors get it.

Of course doctors have to work far harder to get where they are. That's why they're paid a lot more once they've fully qualified. And rightly so. In most professions you have to start off on relatively low pay, working up to higher levels over the years.

 

[markjay]

It’s more that the NHS knows it can bleed doctors dry at a poor wage for the first few years, as they are essentially forced to get their core training via them IMO.

I’m not saying similar doesn’t happen in other professions, but that doesn’t make either more or less right.

People keep mentioning pension contributions at 20%, I wonder how many doctors would rather take a 20% pay rise for foundation years - when they are just starting out and want to set up their lives, rather than a pension contribution they can access 40 years down the line.

Agreed. Someone I know was training as a solicitor but had to give it up due to stress. The hours and workload as a trainee solicitor are actually worse than junior doctors (which her husband is). In either case the reasoning is that once you get to become a partner or a consultant you'll get to dump all that cr@p on the new juniors. It's a musical chairs system, i.e. you can never stop the music or a large layer of upcoming professionals will be suffering badly for having done all those early years of hard work but not getting anything in return to passing the long initiation ceremony.

 

[ChrisHGTV]

Of course, the poster is supposed to draw attention, and it compares hourly rates.

I’m not arguing one way or another.

I personally think it’s a poor starting wage for the qualifications you need and amount of work you put in.

You might disagree & that’s fine. I’m not one of those trying to change the system.

I actually agree with you, it’s not a great starting wage but then the ceiling I would argue is much higher than many other, similar jobs that require the same level of commitment. So over a doctors career I think they generally do very well on balance. Especially when you factor in the pension. You could argue the lower starting wage is a useful filter to attract only those who are dedicated.

 

[Dippo]

From The Spectator, April 2023:

The latest figures, for last year, show a typical doctor in their first year of work for NHS England is paid just more than £37,000. This combines the basic pay rate with non-basic pay fees (including working unsociable hours), and adds up to thousands more than the average UK worker is paid. Average earnings for a Foundation Year 2 doctor were just over £43,000 in the same fiscal year, more than £10,000 higher than the average salary.

What junior doctors really earn

How much money do junior doctors really earn? If you’ve been listening to the British Medical Association – the trade union which represents junior doctors – this week you will have seen comparisons made between their salaries and the wages of Pret A Manger employees. The union talks about...

www.spectator.co.uk

 

[190]

Im with the Doc, don't really use the over priced rail non service, where are you on this.

The doctors have something of a case having fallen behind inflation but then haven't we all so their demands are unrealistic.

The rail workers have no case at all, they are just leeches that have benefitted from a strong union and weak employers that are heavily subsidised by the tax payer. No industry that wasn't subsidised could have survived this degree of union greed. I'm reminded of the print workers closed shop where very high rates of pay came to an end in 1986 with the introduction of new technology. I wish something similar would happen to the rail workers. It could of course, why are we spending billions striving for self driving cars when a much more practical and predictable application is self driving underground and rail trains. The answer is union power.

The railways are a grossly inefficient money pit, I would remove all government subsidies, scrap the whole rail system and let private enterprise start again and see how they get on. If railways can't be run efficiently then convert the tracks for use by buses as they did very effectively Ottawa. Now I can say all that because I never use the train but really, our railways are a bad joke so what other option is there except to continue as an ever more expensive money pit.

 

[ChrisHGTV]

It’s more that the NHS knows it can bleed doctors dry at a poor wage for the first few years, as they are essentially forced to get their core training via them IMO.

I’m not saying similar doesn’t happen in other professions, but that doesn’t make either more or less right.

People keep mentioning pension contributions at 20%, I wonder how many doctors would rather take a 20% pay rise for foundation years - when they are just starting out and want to set up their lives, rather than a pension contribution they can access 40 years down the line.

Maybe the doctors should be negotiating a change to their pension contributions if they prefer to take more in salary in the early years in exchange for some pension contribution. I’ve just had a quick look and doctors pensions are amazing with many taking early retirement (article I read said the average retirement age was 59) as their pot hit the £1M threshold. That’s where my sympathy evaporates I’m afraid.

 

[clk320x]

Maybe the doctors should be negotiating a change to their pension contributions if they prefer to take more in salary in the early years in exchange for some pension contribution. I’ve just had a quick look and doctors pensions are amazing with many taking early retirement (article I read said the average retirement age was 59) as their pot hit the £1M threshold. That’s where my sympathy evaporates I’m afraid.

I don’t think anyone is wanting sympathy to be fair - but to be paid what they feel is fair for their expertise and for pay to have been adjusted for inflation rather than stagnant, which is why there has been lawful industrial action happening. It’s for the government to decide what to do now - the public on the whole have little input.

 

[markjay]

Anyone remembers this?

From memory, firefighters wanted a pay rise from £24k to £32k. The government's counter argument was that even at £24k they had 40 applicants for each vacancy.....

 

[clk320x]

From memory, firefighters wanted a pay rise from £24k to £32k. The government's counter argument was that even at £24k they had 40 applicants for each vacancy.....

Fair point, but can’t be applied to doctors when there is already a big shortage as it is?

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

That top poster above is a bit disingenuous. I bet if you look at the total package the Dr will be much better compensated. I wouldn’t think Pret pay 20.6% pension contribution.

Remind us, why did we let Doctors off the million pound pension pot cap?

Wasn’t it to keep doctors working past 50 ?

 

[markjay]

Fair point, but can’t be applied to doctors when there is already a big shortage as it is?

The point I was making is that when it comes to public sector jobs with no real private sector alternatives for comparison (there's no market for medical school graduates in the private sector - they have to train with the NHS first), it's really difficult to establish what constitutes 'fair pay'. The same goes for law enforcement and for the military. The firefighters won the argument, BTW, and got their pay rise in the end.

 

[markjay]

Remind us, why did we let Doctors off the million pound pension pot cap?

Wasn’t it to keep doctors working past 50 ?

Yes, but these are not them, it's the junior doctors that are currently striking.

 

[TC350]

Fair point, but can’t be applied to doctors when there is already a big shortage as it is?

As it said in the Spectator article posted earlier:

It [the BMA - the doctors’ union] voted back in 2008 to cap the number of places for medical students in Britain, arguing that an increase of staff risked ‘devaluing the profession’, and, ironically, would make these doctors ‘prey to “unscrupulous profiteers”.’​

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

It’s more that the NHS knows it can bleed doctors dry at a poor wage for the first few years, as they are essentially forced to get their core training via them IMO.

I’m not saying similar doesn’t happen in other professions, but that doesn’t make either more or less right.

People keep mentioning pension contributions at 20%, I wonder how many doctors would rather take a 20% pay rise for foundation years - when they are just starting out and want to set up their lives, rather than a pension contribution they can access 40 years down the line.

Every country’s medics do this to the Juniors. It’s basic closed shop elitism.

Who negotiated this salary scale based on age? The medics themselves. Who took the Lions’ share (and an awful lot of flexibility) for themselves? The Condultants.

 

[markjay]

As it said in the Spectator article posted earlier:

It [the BMA - the doctors’ union] voted back in 2008 to cap the number of places for medical students in Britain, arguing that an increase of staff risked ‘devaluing the profession’, and, ironically, would make these doctors ‘prey to “unscrupulous profiteers”.’​

The question is - and I don't know the answer - if at current the number of medical students is below the BMA cap or not. If it's below the cap, than it's not the BMA that is the limiting factor here. But, again, I don't know.

 

[Tonye]

Anyone remembers this?

From memory, firefighters wanted a pay rise from £24k to £32k. The government's counter argument was that even at £24k they had 40 applicants for each vacancy.....

We started with 200 and finished with 30

 

[Tonye]

Pension contribution in my later years was just short of 20% before tax and ni

 

[Tonye]

Try that with 2 kids a in a council house, thank god for Maggie to get me on the ladder. And don't tell me they should have built more houses, not my decision.

 

[Darrell]

Every country’s medics do this to the Juniors. It’s basic closed shop elitism.

Who negotiated this salary scale based on age? The medics themselves. Who took the Lions’ share (and an awful lot of flexibility) for themselves? The Condultants.

^^ this ^^