Driving Instructor's Rage

[mbenz76]

A few weeks ago I was driving up a main road after work.

The road starts as a dual carriageway, but they splite with the left lane turning left and the right lane continuing straight - both have lights on them at the point they split.

I always go straight, so got in the right lane early.

A learner driver in the left lane was indicating, but traffic flow is poor at the best of times and (rude or not) I wasn't about to give way and miss the lights, especially as there were large gaps behind me.

Any way, as I went past the learner, who had stopped whilst indicating, the instructor leaned over and held his hand on the horn for several seconds!

Get a grip! As an instructor you should know when it is legal to use your horn, and what lesson are you teaching your pupil!

And this was from a major brand name company!

 

[flango]

See my post on the Rites of Passage Thread, the quality of some ADI's is apalling they should never be driving themselves. Carp standards imposed by the nanny state government is where the problem stems from toughen up the ADI test and the driving test IMHO

 

[whitenemesis]

A few weeks ago I was driving up a main road after work.

The road starts as a dual carriageway, but they splite with the left lane turning left and the right lane continuing straight - both have lights on them at the point they split.

I always go straight, so got in the right lane early.

A learner driver in the left lane was indicating, but traffic flow is poor at the best of times and (rude or not) I wasn't about to give way and miss the lights, especially as there were large gaps behind me.

Any way, as I went past the learner, who had stopped whilst indicating, the instructor leaned over and held his hand on the horn for several seconds!

Get a grip! As an instructor you should know when it is legal to use your horn, and what lesson are you teaching your pupil!

And this was from a major brand name company!

Admittedly the instructor was setting a bad example but you certainly didn't set a better one! What catastrophic event would have befallen you had you slowed and let the car in?

Impatience is so prevalent these days, why? What do we do with the 30sec we 'save'?

 

[mbenz76]

How far is too early to get in lane. This starts at a roundabout, and goes for about 200-300 yards before the lights where it splits.

Getting in the left lane only to have to indicate into the right lane after 200-300 yards would slow both lanes down so it makes sense to get into the right lane straight away.

I do not aim to set a great example driving, but I drive safely and within the speed limits etc. I am however fed up being held up by endless traffic lights (where give way would do the job) and pedestrian crossing where there are 3 within a few yards of each other. Traffic management in Sheffield is designed to slow you down not aid you, so yes, I could have let him in, but I get stopped so many times driving in traffic these days by pointless things that I have lost much of the good will I used to have. It's every man for himself I'm afraid.

Incidentally, indicating is a request to move over, not an "I'm coming move over". I do not have to stop and let someone in unless I choose to. And sorry, but if there is nothing behind me, then they can easily pull in behind, and me stopping would do nothing other than slow me down.

By the way, who the hell "likes" being stuck behind a learner!

 

[whitenemesis]

How far is too early to get in lane. This starts at a roundabout, and goes for about 200-300 yards before the lights where it splits.

Getting in the left lane only to have to indicate into the right lane after 200-300 yards would slow both lanes down so it makes sense to get into the right lane straight away.

I do not aim to set a great example driving, but I drive safely and within the speed limits etc. I am however fed up being held up by endless traffic lights (where give way would do the job) and pedestrian crossing where there are 3 within a few yards of each other. Traffic management in Sheffield is designed to slow you down not aid you, so yes, I could have let him in, but I get stopped so many times driving in traffic these days by pointless things that I have lost much of the good will I used to have. It's every man for himself I'm afraid.

Incidentally, indicating is a request to move over, not an "I'm coming move over". I do not have to stop and let someone in unless I choose to. And sorry, but if there is nothing behind me, then they can easily pull in behind, and me stopping would do nothing other than slow me down.

By the way, who the hell "likes" being stuck behind a learner!

I only highlight it as you said 'early', implying before required.

And yes if there was nothing behind you, then perfectly reasonable to expect him to pull in behind you.

 

[davethemus]

bit of double standards, no?

 

[Rory]

Incidentally, indicating is a request to move over, not an "I'm coming move over". I do not have to stop and let someone in unless I choose to.

Our ex-Police driving instructors at work reckoned that if you indicate and someone either doesn't notice, or ignores it, then they could get done for Driving Without Due Care & Consideration (I think it's just Careless Driving now).

 

[flango]

Our ex-Police driving instructors at work reckoned that if you indicate and someone either doesn't notice, or ignores it, then they could get done for Driving Without Due Care & Consideration (I think it's just Careless Driving now).

Not true as an active advanced instructor and polce class 1 driver instructor, Mbenz76 is perfectly correct in this instance.

A trafficator signal is a request to change position not a right. Once you have indicated the duty of care is upon you to ensure there is a clear space to move into without compromising your own or other road users safety.

The ADI was clearly at fault in this situation by not ensuring his pupil had a clear gap to move into at the correct time, as I say shocking standards, get them to take the driving test every 2 years like I do and lets see how many keep their AdI status then!

 

[davethemus]

but it's good manners, it's like going out of your way to hold a door open for an old lady, it might slow you down by 20 seconds but you'll still get where you're going

 

[Rory]

A trafficator signal is a request to change position not a right. Once you have indicated the duty of care is upon you to ensure there is a clear space to move into without compromising your own or other road users safety.

What about your duty to observe he signals of other road users and only proceed when you're satisified that it's safe to do so?

In the OPs case, if the learner had changed lanes and a collison resulted then maybe the CPS would ask for them both the be charged. So the OP would stand up in court and say "A learner driver in the left lane was indicating, but I elected to ignore that signal and carried on. The learner changed lanes and a collision resulted."

Hmm - how's that going to go down?

 

[renault12ts]

Good manners, bad manners. When it comes to driving, especially when learning to drive, it is better to be taught correctly rather than badly. The instructor was in the wrong. He should have advised his pupil to seek to change lanes earlier. He should when it was obviously too late advised his pupil to wait until the op had passed then join the lane safely behind him.

Far better the pupil learn how to drive and what is right or wrong rather than expect "good manners" from others. This will keep the learner safe in the long run.

At Zebra crossings we teach kids to look and listen when safe to do so. Drivers know they must stop if safe to do so. However, there are crossing places nowadays which are not Zebra crossings. Drivers have no onus to stop, and indeed should not stop to allow pedestrians to cross Why? If a child is allowed to cross by a driver then the child will learn (incorrectly) that cars will stop at such crossings...until the next time when the car does not stop...

 

[mbenz76]

Just out of interest. I have just run through the section of road in question with Google Street View and you get 5 whole car lengths notice that the left lane is going to be forced left - and then only by an arrow painted on the road. There are no signs (not even when you get right upto it). As the road splits there is a cycle lane which starts between the two (going straight), so your chances to move over are limited at that point. The L-car was a good 10-15 car lengths ahead of this so the instructor clearly knew the road layout and could have moved over earlier.

It's p*ss poor road planning like this that annoys people and makes you do things you wouldn't normally do - like hang in the right lane so you don't have to move over later.

I will admit that I have acquired an "every man for himself" attitude to motoring the last year or two, but it is not my responsibility to help every driver who wants to move over or pull out.

I let some people in and others can wait. I let some pull out of junctions, and others can wait. There is nothing more annoying than being stuck behind someone who thinks they MUST let every car in that indicates, and let every car pull out of every junction they pass. We don't all have time to waste.

If I gave way to every driver who wanted to pull in front of me on my average drive home from work I would probably add 5 minutes to my journey (maybe even 10 if I missed the lights as a result). Not much I know, but do this each way, every day and I have lost 1 hour 40 minutes (worst case) a week; 6 hours 40 minutes a month; and 80 hours a year! 80 hours! That's more than two working weeks. Would you give someone 2 weeks of your time? The same 2 weeks most of us take for holiday? No, you wouldn't. (I haven't double checked the maths so might be a bit out!).

Whether I am right or wrong though, it doesn't give someone with supposedly superior driving skills the right to blow his horn in anger. If I'd got his registration I would have reported him to the company he works for. My wife wants to start learning to drive, and if that's how their instructors behave she won't be learning with them.

 

[RobertoMercini]

If I gave way to every driver who wanted to pull in front of me on my average drive home from work I would probably add 5 minutes to my journey (maybe even 10 if I missed the lights as a result). Not much I know, but do this each way, every day and I have lost 1 hour 40 minutes (worst case) a week; 6 hours 40 minutes a month; and 80 hours a year! 80 hours! That's more than two working weeks. Would you give someone 2 weeks of your time? The same 2 weeks most of us take for holiday? No, you wouldn't. (I haven't double checked the maths so might be a bit out!).

.

Do you work seven days a week then?

 

[219]

What about your duty to observe he signals of other road users and only proceed when you're satisified that it's safe to do so?

In the OPs case, if the learner had changed lanes and a collison resulted then maybe the CPS would ask for them both the be charged. So the OP would stand up in court and say "A learner driver in the left lane was indicating, but I elected to ignore that signal and carried on. The learner changed lanes and a collision resulted."

Hmm - how's that going to go down?

As already stated by Ian above , the trafficator signal accords no authority whatsoever to execute any change of direction and most certainly does not affect the rules of priority in any situation . However , I would not go as far as to say that it constitutes even a 'request' as that implies the need for some act on the part of someone else : if the move you are planning to make would cause another driver to have to alter course or speed then it is inappropriate and you should not be considering it in the first place !

The correct meaning of a right trafficator signal is " I WISH or INTEND to move over / turn to the right " - no one needs to alter their course or speed because of such a signal .

Yes , a driver DOES have a duty of care to be observant and aware of other traffic ( this is equally true for BOTH drivers in the situation outlined above ) but the hypothetical collision outlined above would be ENTIRELY the fault of the learner driver .

In the case of the situation outlined where someone in the nearside lane starts trafficating right as you are about to pass them , the most appropriate reaction would be to give them a horn warning so that they are aware of your presence and are in no doubt that you are about to pass .

The worst examples of this behaviour seen on our roads everyday is by the people who brake in front of other traffic on motorways or dual carriageways to either let someone join from a slip road when the onus is always on joining traffic to give way , or to move out for an overtake into a lane populated by faster traffic which is going to have to brake hard as a result ; or indeed by those who just barge out from slip roads onto carriageways causing other drivers to brake . ( There is nothing wrong with decelerating slightly or moving out a lane as a courtesy to let traffic join as long as you have checked properly that you are not inconveniencing anyone else behind you , but you are under NO OBLIGATION to do so ) .

It both disappoints and annoys me that a great many people on the roads these days seem to have the rules of priority backwards and then try to inflict their poor standards of driving on the rest of us .

There is nothing at all rude or ill-mannered about proceeding along the road where you are entitled to - the rudeness is entirely on the part of those who choose to 'barge' in our out and expect others to accommodate them when a little observation and forward planning on their part would avoid any conflicts in the first place .

 

[Hi-Ho Silver]

I believe the word we are all looking for here is 'discretion'. It works both ways. Trying to fix a rule about when to give way/pull out is daft because there are too many variables..... and I think there are too many bloody signs too!

In my opinion, the one thing which generally seems to be lacking in current attitudes towards driving is courtesy and respect for other road users. Two, the two main things which are lacking are courtesy, respect for other road users and discretion are three things. There are three main things which I notice the most, when i'm driving.

I'd put inconsiderate drivers into those little blue plastic Reliant Robins which used to be around when I was a kid. Give them a stint of 'upto 20mph' in a Hong-Kong Fooey mobile and see how their attitudes change. The feeling of constantly being in the way is not usually a pleasurable one.

 

[Deleted member 6183]

Just out of interest. I have just run through the section of road in question with Google Street View and you get 5 whole car lengths notice that the left lane is going to be forced left - and then only by an arrow painted on the road. There are no signs (not even when you get right upto it). As the road splits there is a cycle lane which starts between the two (going straight), so your chances to move over are limited at that point. The L-car was a good 10-15 car lengths ahead of this so the instructor clearly knew the road layout and could have moved over earlier.

It's p*ss poor road planning like this that annoys people and makes you do things you wouldn't normally do - like hang in the right lane so you don't have to move over later.

I will admit that I have acquired an "every man for himself" attitude to motoring the last year or two, but it is not my responsibility to help every driver who wants to move over or pull out.

I let some people in and others can wait. I let some pull out of junctions, and others can wait. There is nothing more annoying than being stuck behind someone who thinks they MUST let every car in that indicates, and let every car pull out of every junction they pass. We don't all have time to waste.

If I gave way to every driver who wanted to pull in front of me on my average drive home from work I would probably add 5 minutes to my journey (maybe even 10 if I missed the lights as a result). Not much I know, but do this each way, every day and I have lost 1 hour 40 minutes (worst case) a week; 6 hours 40 minutes a month; and 80 hours a year! 80 hours! That's more than two working weeks. Would you give someone 2 weeks of your time? The same 2 weeks most of us take for holiday? No, you wouldn't. (I haven't double checked the maths so might be a bit out!).

Whether I am right or wrong though, it doesn't give someone with supposedly superior driving skills the right to blow his horn in anger. If I'd got his registration I would have reported him to the company he works for. My wife wants to start learning to drive, and if that's how their instructors behave she won't be learning with them.

Sadly a lot of drivers think the same as you and as a result the roads are a misery for the rest of us.

 

[flango]

What about your duty to observe he signals of other road users and only proceed when you're satisified that it's safe to do so?

In the OPs case, if the learner had changed lanes and a collison resulted then maybe the CPS would ask for them both the be charged. So the OP would stand up in court and say "A learner driver in the left lane was indicating, but I elected to ignore that signal and carried on. The learner changed lanes and a collision resulted."

Hmm - how's that going to go down?

Your original point does not apply in this case. The OP is in the right lane and as such under the road traffic act has priority over traffic to the left of him. The onus is totally on the car in the left lane to MSM at the correct point whilst not impeding traffic flow in the right lane.

I asked SWMBO and my next door neighbour (a serving traffic officer)for a ruling on if there had been a collision who would have been at fault and who would have been prosecuted. Both said immediately the learner driver and the ADI would have been prosecuted if a collision had occured the OP was perfectly within his rights with the course of action he took and did not break any laws so no prosecution would ever arise. The road traffic act clearly states you always give way to traffic on your right as it always has priority over you. There are a few complicated exception but we wont go into those here.

 

[Middletone]

Most of today DSA Instructors are INSANE ! They do not know simple things ...

 

[HowardD]

It's p*ss poor road planning like this that annoys people and makes you do things you wouldn't normally do - like hang in the right lane so you don't have to move over later.

If I gave way to every driver who wanted to pull in front of me on my average drive home from work I would probably add 5 minutes to my journey.

Leaving no time for some luvverly detailed posts about it on the forum.

 

[MOCAŠ]

Most of today DSA Instructors are INSANE !

Ah, a nice, balanced contribution to the debate.