E63 Juddering / Crabbing - what is going on? Rejecting car.

[Bobby Dazzler]

I do use winter tyres on my daily driver as i happen to believe they are beneficial for c3 months of the year.

My point is that MB are using the wrong solution to resolve a technical design failing....not because winter tyres are better per se.

To design a car and tyre which can provide ultimate performance in every respect in all conditions is unrealistic (like an ultra high performance tyre).

A jack of all trades which performs quite well in all conditions is more realistic however (like an all season tyre).

The tread blocks on Winter tyres and all season tyres are designed to move around, which helps the diff on full lock, especially at aggressive turn angles.

The tread blocks on an ultra high performance summer are designed to do the opposite, and hence the skipping sensation.

The tread block, stiffened side wall and low profile of a high performance tyre mean that there is nothing to absorb movement or slip.

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

No where in the replies posted quoting MB advice / solution have i seen MB say owners need to regularly switch tyres...only that different, winter focussed, tyres reduce the problem...

Happy to see evidence to the contrary.

In the examples I’m aware of, Mercedes have fitted all season tyres, ie tyres for all seasons, which don’t need to be changed.

Winter tyres are not all season tyres and so ideally should be paired up with a set of summer tyres (changing twice each year).

 

[Slugsy]

I’ve used summer performance tyres in the winter and now winter tyres and I can from experience say:

1. Winter tyres in wet and cold way out perform summer tyres in the winter - the grip and ability of the car to put the power down is much greater in poorer conditions with winter tyres and it’s been pretty wet this winter!

2. There is no crabbing at all with winter tyres

I was a bit taken back when I experienced the crabbing the first time, but then again, I did experience it also on a Panamera and my friend says it happens on his Porsche 911 too, so I’ve taken it as ‘not a hill to die on’!

 

[MrRight]

And just to summarise , you will see people complaining about juddering / crabbing on many boards over many years though usually the conversation then revolves around solutions to replacing suspension components etc which in many cases wont make any difference if it is the tyres that are the problem.

what I dont understand personally is that in many cases, merc have wrapped the rims on their performance cars with some really expensive rubber , which will no doubt perform better around 70 percent of the time than the all season tyres, that will replace them to resolve the tyre skipping/ juddering. it really is a case of customers cutting off their noses to spite their faces. I cant disagree with merc here, it really is a comfort issue. The all season tyres simply wont perform as well except in colder and wetter climates .

Too many cars have I been in that judder in the winter and has absolutely nothing at all to do with anything other than the tyres. Customers buying these cars for the first time do need to be educated much better about tyres and their characteristics in different environments IMO.

 

[Deleted member 149005]

So why don’t MB fit all season tyres to UK models as the default tyre...

Rather than creating an issue and bearing additional expense and poor PR to rectify later?

 

[MrRight]

So why don’t MB fit all season tyres to UK models as the default tyre...

Rather than creating an issue and bearing additional expense and poor PR to rectify later?

They possibly do so now (fit all seasons) on some models , but it would be an act of sheer folly to do so on the AMGs which will give a mediocre driving experience for the majority of the year as there are nil Allseason tyres that can perform anywhere near as well as the vast array of UHP summer tyre options in the warmer months and dry conditions that prevail for around 70 percent of the year. As I truly believe a bit of juddering and skipping is merely a comfort issue, I really dont see it being anything other than a point of communication from merc.

my point was more that there ought to be a mention in the owners manual about the tyres relating to the colder months and at the point of sale there should be very clear communication on what to expect in the winter on UHP summer tyres.

In no way would I ever think fitting all season tyres as standard on an AMG is the right call. On the more comfort oriented models, sure , that's a good move and compromise perhaps.

 

[Deleted member 149005]

I agree "all season" tyres are a comprise on a performance car - exactly the point I made earlier

 

[23 Romeo Tango]

EDIT: I was typing this post while the last 2 posts were discussing pretty much the same thing

So why don’t MB fit all season tyres to UK models as the default tyre...

Rather than creating an issue and bearing additional expense and poor PR to rectify later?

Below, Mr Right has touched on an answer to your question in his previous post.

merc have wrapped the rims on their performance cars with some really expensive rubber , which will no doubt perform better around 70 percent of the time than the all season tyres, that will replace them to resolve the tyre skipping/ juddering. it really is a case of customers cutting off their noses to spite their faces.

As you can imagine MB spend lots of money on R&D for the best tyre to fit to their cars. Obviously this is so their cars leave the factory complying to the performance spec sheet they attach to each particular model. If they deliver these cars with an inferior tyre then the performance numbers and abilities won't be met, hence delivery with the best tyre available. MB say that if an owner isn't happy with the 'comfort issue' that tyre skip/judder produces then they can fit all season/winter tyres to rectify this effect.

As suggested in this thread, all season tyres can be used to eliminate tyre skip for ~3 months of the year where temps drop to a level that produce tyre skip. If you don't change back to summer tyres then you will be driving in warmer months with an inferior tyre for the conditions, thus potentially reducing performance for ~9 months of the year.

Albeit more expensive, like many others I opted for winter tyres (maybe I should have chosen all seasons) and spare rims for ~3 months and then I switch back to summer tyres to enjoy the remainder of the year with confidence that I have the best tyre to push the car if I wish.

FYI, the dealership contributed £1,200 towards my winters. If I'd have got them to replace my tyres then they would have kept my brand new summers and I would have to buy some more anyway.

 

[SarahAnn200]

I am thrilled with the all season tyres. I don't need the additional performance the summer tyres might give. I drive to the speed limits, 30 in a 30, 70 on motorways and don't do track days. I don't need more performance than an all season tyre gives but what I did need is my car to stop skipping sideways.

 

[spooks]

Ok, latest update. I've officially rejected the car. I am now pending a response from the dealer and their position. I've also notified the finance company.

I've not fully read through every response in this thread but in my view, they supplied the car with tyres fitted that should be suitable for use all year round - if not they should make it clear about the 'driving characteristic'. My E63 Judders and crabs badly to the point it sounds like something will break - it's horrible and shouldn't be present on a car of such high value. This BS about tyre wall stiffness etc is rubbish, my F80 M3 had the same Michelin Pilot Sport 4S tyres on and did not display these symptoms, my friends BMW M5 (Latest Gen) with the same tyres does NOT display these symptoms.

Also, the magazines only review the E63S model which has an e-diff and not a mechanical one so its not like for like. We've also no idea what tyres they were running or how Mercedes set the car up to avoid these problems surfacing. In my view they have accepted there is a problem by offering me new tyres to fix the 'issue' but it is my right within the first 30 days of purchase to either accept the fix or reject it. Either way, I will take them to court if they refuse.

I had no idea that you're meant to run different tyres in different seasons - this has never been the case for any of my other cars. Yes, its recommended because of better grip but definitely shouldn't be mandatory. Lastly, the crap they are spouting about it won't be an issue with temps above 7C are rubbish, this happens in Australia where as you know it can be quite warm! Where I live the weekend high whilst driving was 10C so that flies in the face of their own documentation.

Very poor from Mercedes to be honest - If BMW can make a car with the same performance and 4WD why can't Merc?

 

[st13phil]

Good luck with the rejection.

It's always sad when expectation isn't matched by reality, so I feel for you that the car has been a disappointment to you. Hope you find something else that does meet your expectations.

 

[Wheelnut58]

EDIT: I was typing this post while the last 2 posts were discussing pretty much the same thing



Below, Mr Right has touched on an answer to your question in his previous post.


As you can imagine MB spend lots of money on R&D for the best tyre to fit to their cars. Obviously this is so their cars leave the factory complying to the performance spec sheet they attach to each particular model. If they deliver these cars with an inferior tyre then the performance numbers and abilities won't be met, hence delivery with the best tyre available. MB say that if an owner isn't happy with the 'comfort issue' that tyre skip/judder produces then they can fit all season/winter tyres to rectify this effect.

As suggested in this thread, all season tyres can be used to eliminate tyre skip for ~3 months of the year where temps drop to a level that produce tyre skip. If you don't change back to summer tyres then you will be driving in warmer months with an inferior tyre for the conditions, thus potentially reducing performance for ~9 months of the year.

Albeit more expensive, like many others I opted for winter tyres (maybe I should have chosen all seasons) and spare rims for ~3 months and then I switch back to summer tyres to enjoy the remainder of the year with confidence that I have the best tyre to push the car if I wish.

FYI, the dealership contributed £1,200 towards my winters. If I'd have got them to replace my tyres then they would have kept my brand new summers and I would have to buy some more anyway.

Just to add to this, I got new all season tyres on my glc at 12 months old, and to be fair to MB Sheffield they gave me my Michelin tyres back as well so I sold those separately when I traded in the glc

 

[23 Romeo Tango]

in my view, they supplied the car with tyres fitted that should be suitable for use all year round - if not they should make it clear about the 'driving characteristic'. My E63 Judders and crabs badly to the point it sounds like something will break - it's horrible and shouldn't be present on a car of such high value.

I totally agree, MB should be making this known to all purchasers when they enquire/test drive any of the vehicles that have this issue. The first time I knew about it was after delivery, this really pi55ed me off and I had all the same thoughts you are having right now. I then looked at the other options and knew I wouldn't buy the equivalent BMW or Audi for various reasons. At the time (2 years ago) I did read of many other vehicles, Porsche, BMW, Audi to name a few and their owners were also reporting the same tyre skip/judder issues with similar tyres/conditions. My Cousins 2016 R8 also had tyre skip. That doesn't make it alright, that just tells me I could have swapped to another car and had the same dilemma. I decided that my W213 E63s Edition 1 was the best car for me at that time (and still is) and I was happy to take the relevant actions to help me enjoy the car 365.

my F80 M3 had the same Michelin Pilot Sport 4S tyres on and did not display these symptoms, my friends BMW M5 (Latest Gen) with the same tyres does NOT display these symptoms.

Your F80 M3 didn't have 4matic, so that's not a real comparison although some 2WD vehicles do also suffer from tyre skip.
Like I said above, 2 years ago I had heard BMW F10 M5 (NOT Latest Gen) owners report tyre skip, I guess not all of them do because as you say your friends F90 doesn't.

Also, the magazines only review the E63S model which has an e-diff and not a mechanical one so its not like for like.

I can confirm that an E63s with e-diff does suffer from tyre skip.

I had no idea that you're meant to run different tyres in different seasons - this has never been the case for any of my other cars. Yes, its recommended because of better grip but definitely shouldn't be mandatory.

Again I totally agree with you, we shouldn't have to change tyres to get rid of tyre skip. MB will give you the option to swap your tyres for free. They will give you tyres that won't skip, but they aren't the BEST tyre for all year round driving, the choice is yours.

Lastly, the crap they are spouting about it won't be an issue with temps above 7C are rubbish, this happens in Australia where as you know it can be quite warm! Where I live the weekend high whilst driving was 10C so that flies in the face of their own documentation.

I have owned this car for 2 years, with temps up and down and I can confirm that when the weather is above ~7*c my summer tyres do not skip. Note: occasionally they may skip when I get in the car first thing in a cold morning, but after a short while when the tyres themselves have warmed up, no skipping.

Very poor from Mercedes to be honest - If BMW can make a car with the same performance and 4WD why can't Merc?

Yes, it is very poor from Mercedes, but I wouldn't be too convinced that BMW have found a 100% solution to this issue either.

I feel for you and I wish none of us were experiencing this problem. Like someone else mentioned in another post, I hope you get exactly what you want and I genuinely hope you enjoy your next purchase. Good luck

 

[flowrider]

There’s nothing wrong with your car. Our C63 as well as the other high performance cars in the family are all crabbing in this colder weather too so please stop panicking.

Please read what Bobby says above, he’s had plenty experience with top end cars.

My Audi S5 doesn't do it though, at least not that I have noticed even when looking for it.

 

[Petrol Pete]

OP. Now you have gone legal my advice would be from now on to stay off this subject on this forum (and any others) , MB will be reading.

 

[flowrider]

4Matic cars are relatively new to the UK.... up to a few years ago 4Matic cars were not available with RHD at all. I guess there was a reason why MB were historically reluctant to convert 4Matic cars to RHD.

The W164 ML that came out in 2006 (I think) had 4matic. My 2009 ML had it.

 

[ShaunB]

I have owned this car for 2 years, with temps up and down and I can confirm that when the weather is above ~7*c my summer tyres do not skip. Note: occasionally they may skip when I get in the car first thing in a cold morning, but after a short while when the tyres themselves have warmed up, no skipping.

Totally agree, personally I find once the tyre has a wee bit of warmth, then they do not skip anymore, even if the weather temperature is below say 7 degrees.

 

[Germgh0st]

I had the tyres on my C43 replaced FOC by Mercedes because of this issue. I don't have anywhere to store winter tyres for 3 months of the year, nor do I drive the car to it's limits so don't really need the performance of summer tyres in summer. For me the skipping issue was far more important, as I have a very narrow space to maneouvre off of my driveway and the skipping meant that I was perilously close to hitting my fence or other cars. They did actually give me the option to keep the summer tyres, but as I can only get one in the boot i didn't have a lot of choice other than to have them dispose of them.

 

[Wheelnut58]

I don’t see what the big fuss is about, I usually finish work around 3am,where we park on site is quite tight, and most cars Boxster, tt, bmw 335d and my own slk all suffer the crabbing, I only pushed for new tyres on the glc as it was on a pcp, and I wouldn’t be keeping it, so just decided that if they were giving away new tyres I’m going to have some as well

 

[flowrider]

I had the tyres on my C43 replaced FOC by Mercedes because of this issue. I don't have anywhere to store winter tyres for 3 months of the year, nor do I drive the car to it's limits so don't really need the performance of summer tyres in summer. For me the skipping issue was far more important, as I have a very narrow space to maneouvre off of my driveway and the skipping meant that I was perilously close to hitting my fence or other cars. They did actually give me the option to keep the summer tyres, but as I can only get one in the boot i didn't have a lot of choice other than to have them dispose of them.

Hopefully MB gave you all season tyres and not winter tyres if you intend to keep them on the car all year round.