Electric cars and the future..

[unimog]

Average miles and even the dirtiest electricity production methods mean an EV is overall less polluting than ICE.

Of course they still pollute. Damn near everything we do, including breathing, generates pollution.

Zero emissions at point of use isn’t something to be dismissed.

Car plants won’t shut when ICE production stops, just the engine plants. That’s bad for the owners and workers, but can be mitigated for.

Until hydrogen can be produced relatively cleanly, it‘s of zero use as car fuel. I’ve no personal knowledge of this situation so it could be bogus, but I’ve read recently that it’s been impossible to get it in forecourts since March? More than one person commented on having an expensive lawn ornament for lack of fuel.

But it isn't zero emission is it? Unless you charge it from a 100% green source its a lie. Evidently this is a lie that metro elite types and eco morons are happy with. The Electric car should be hit with a heavy tax which needs to be used to produce green only local power. Then you can call it 'zero emission'. As I said, given that most power stations are not in cities, all you are doing is making the emissions of generating power someone else's problem. Perfect example of NIMBYism.

Hydrogen is produced cleanly, everyday, in large quantities for the last 15+ years. I would say its bullshit hydrogen is not available, most of it is made on site using wind or grid balance power at night. Hydrogen is usually produced with an electrolyser module at point of use, no transport logisitics needed.

ITM

ITM manufacture PEM electrolysers. A pioneering technology that generates green hydrogen enabling customers to decarbonise.

www.itm-power.com

Never mind the issues with electric recharging infrastructure, those surrounding hydrogen are even greater.
TfL have to transport their buses to Swindon for service and refuelling, well that's stopping soon as Honda closes down.
Traction batteries for hybrid and EVs are serviceable, with modules independently exchanged. Very few issues posted with Toyota/Lexus batteries, warranty up to 15yrs with annual health checks

There has been a hydrogen station run by Air Products at Heathrow (BA Main Hangar) and another one at Hendon in North London since 2014. Incidentally there are another 7 built and operated by ITM (see above link) around London, they produce hydrogen on site using wind energy. No transport costs, no emissions from the electrolyser units. 100% green production and use.

TFL and Citizen Kahn are so bent that if they ate nails they would shit corkscrews. AP wont cross TFL's palm with silver to refuel in the bus garages hence all the crowing about sending buses to Swindon. The actual truth is the buses have propulsion units from Johnson Matthey in Swindon (whom manufacture propulsion fuel cells), TFL do not/did not pay for these vehicles, they are evaluation prototypes and so they have little choice in the matter, but that truth doesn't fit the bed wetting EV zealot narrative.

I agree regarding traction batteries for service, but electric for heavy load applications isn't suitable, some form of hybrid is needed. The problem is torque for traction motors isn't linear, it falls away once its up to speed, and hence draws more current when placed under load (starting off or going up hill for example) which causes battery drain on a curve similar to a fuel consumption curve. EV's are great in town, but not for towing or moving loads. The amount of batteries increase the tare weight of commercials and reduce load capacity. Example: The eVito has over 400kg less payload than its diesel counterpart. (923kg versus 1360kg) The Hydrogen Vito test mule has just over 1600kg of payload as its 250kg lighter then the diesel one, and has a 300 mile range as opposed to 90 in the EV.

I just don't see a logical argument for an electric vehicle future, which is why the government should engage people like Dr Kim and Hyundai, Siemens, Linde and ITM and have a proper debate and policy rather than a knee jerk response driven by a group of crusty socialists aping the lingusitic aptitude of science whilst avoiding any and all of its rigour.

 

[Deleted member 126969]

I didn’t say zero emissions, I said zero emissions at point of use. As long as folk realise they aren’t doing more than moving the problem to somewhere less harmful it isn’t NIMBYism IMO but a reasoned way of making life a bit better for a lot of city dwellers. (I’m not a city dweller so it won’t affect me either way). The image I always carry in my head is a BEV with a long extension cord connected to a coal burning power station, but that’s not quite true....and even if it was, it’s still cleaner than ICE.

Clean hydrogen isn’t new, but clean hydrogen at the scale required to be a viable fuel for the masses isn’t presently possible. The odd test case setup is interesting but of little practical use. It’s also horribly inefficient using it as an energy store. Cracking gas to make it don’t count either.

truth is, each of these technologies has a place, and each has significant shortcomings, there isn’t a single perfect solution so what’s needed is an open mind to the whole list of alternatives. ICE will be with us for a good while yet I think, battery tech gets better all the time so once consumers twig they don’t actually need a 500 mile range per charge then manufacturers can start making more sensible cars the would suit the needs of the vast majority...if only they’d be honest about it.

At present, BEV seems like the least worst option of the alternatives. Things will change and maybe HFC based power will come into it’s own. Not there yet though.

 

[Deleted member 126969]

Having looked at the link...I question some of your points. There are 3 stations within the M25, and only 2 of the 9 total in the country are green (Rainham and Rotherham) One solar, one wind.

It’s a start, I’m not knocking it, but please be accurate!

 

[190]

I do think the government are at risk of burning their boats by rushing head long into EVs and banning IC engines including hybrids without a clear understanding that EV's are a workable replacement in every case. As in any large scale government lead project, I predict a huge waste of public funds in the process.