ELECTRIC CLASSIC CARS

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You want electric classic cars?
How's about a 1909 Baker Electric?
Tuercas Viejas

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It's not quite the same thing though. Even if you need to have (say) new valves or pistons machined up from scratch for your Ferrari in 20 years time it will still be the same engine, and the car will be unchanged. You won't be forced to fit an entirely different powerplant.

In 20 years time you won't be able to fit a direct replacement Li Ion pack to your classic Tesla - who knows what battery/charging technology we'll be using then. So given enough money you can certainly have a completely different power source installed, but of course it won't integrate with any of the car's systems (charging, capacity measurement, cooling/heating, range, etc.). By the time that's all been replaced there won't be much of the original car left bar the bodyshell & wheels. It will look the same from the outside but that's about it ... not much different to electrifying a Ferrari now?!

There's also the money aspect - classic cars as we know them know will cease to exist as the cost of doing this type of highly specialised work will make it inaccessible to all but the Jay Lenos etc. of the world. Not like spannering an old IC engined car in your garage. We're already seeing this now with classic aircraft. Front-line fighter aircraft from WW1 and WW2 can be (and are) operated & maintained by small groups of volunteers. Who is going to be able to run an F-35 or Eurofighter 50 years from now? We've already seen the grounding of the last remaining Vulcan and Concorde aircraft because maintaining one in airworthy condition isn't feasible for even major corporations - and this is stone age technology in comparison to the latest EVs (which are basically computers on wheels).
There is a flaw in your logic, do you really think any car built today will be around in 20 years time? Firstly it will fall apart and be too expensive to repair like say when the wiring loom gets damaged and secondly young folks of today are cut from a different cloth to what we were, we repair stuff they recycle and buy a new unless its a wardrobe or some other piece of shite furniture that can be sanded down and painted and then they call it repurposing i believe
 
As a comment on electric cars .
I got a certification by Toyota/Lexus to repair their hybrids in 2013 , A useful comment was from one of their instructors /engineers out of Torrance in California.
Quote "We make the best cars in the world, and we make more than anyone else. We share our repair technologies with good independent shops because we can't fix them all as dealers
Also remember because anyone buying a 30 year old Camry entry level and gets good service out of it using an independent shop will buy another Toyota or even a Lexus. For that reason alone we have the best customer loyalty worldwide".


Now that stated the life of a Prius is about 10 years and in NA it will run for about 250,000 miles with a traction battery change at between 150,00 to 175,00 miles Once the vehicle has passed the 250 ,000 mile marker its looking a bit shabby and really has no value, except for scrap. ($250 if you are lucky) .

Now stacked up against this is the the Nissan Leaf emerging around 2012 to 2013.
Promising a 100 mile range but getting about 80 miles at best with 40 to 50 miles being the optimum on very cold or very hot days and made worse when the battery SOC is showing 8 bars or less.

Residual Value?
From our repair stats & what is a dead Nissan Leaf worth

The Nissan Leaf as a good example.
Focus in on say the the 2013 models' which have a quoted range of 80 odd miles per charge.
Now batteries deteriorate (even Nissan ones) and overtime say about 40,000 miles are about 3 to 4 years of use the useable range drops to about 50% of SOC of that claimed figure.
Also take into account that heat ,extreme cold and use of a traction battery in a deteriorated state deteriorates it even further. Again SOC!

Now real world experiences add up ostensibly to buying a Nissan Leaf new or used.
A used 2013 Nissan leaf in good condition can be obtained from a private party here in the US for around $4500 to $6500 with about 40,000 miles on it . Often showing less than "8" bars of residual battery power, the owner is giving it the "heave ho" before it really takes a dump !
Because what is a dead Nissan Leaf worth?
Not being the original owner a new battery (if you can get one) is around $10,000 with 4 hours of labor time at say $800.
So to reinvigorate this 2013 cracker box is going to be almost $11,000.
I suppose the good news if this can be good news
If you are the original owner then a new exchange battery is $6600 with a subsidized labor charge on 4 hours of install charges included.

So now overall life before its time to crush.
Overall life is about 10 years tops and at that lifespan even using a Toyota Hybrid as a bench mark, the thing is looking pretty forlorn at 175,000 and have no real value.
So in short these thing are going to be like cell phones.
No-one in his right mind would buy an electric car.
Yes! I would lease it, but buying one is not financially a good preposition.
That in short is dealer capture and it will make an indelible change on the Independent auto repair business , mine included.
Unconvinced ,then walk into a Hyundai dealer and start asking about the super duper Ionic 2021 EV cracker boxes .
First big question to the sales boutique chappy what's the life of the traction battery-?
Hyundai chappy in a Goodwill ill fitting Armani suit is preprogrammed to answer "100,000 miles warranty and Hyundai will replace it FOC up to that point".
Can I buy a new battery off the parts counter if I find a fixer upper later on?
No Mr Jones, its not available ,its a dealer only part.
Yes its FUN.
But all of this doesn't auger well for classic rehabs of techno boxes to classic car status, like an Hispano Suiza
Tuercas viejas
 
In reply to this, I would pose the question- when is a hybrid not a hybrid? It's a terminological inexactitude derived from its biological origins where one species breeds with another implying a 50-50 contribution to the final product. Certainly until recently and helped by the introduction of plug-in versions hybrid motor cars were not propelled by a 50-50 mix of power sources . Checking on the Toyota Prius battery specifications for 2014 it appeared to be equipped the 1.5kw-hour NiMH battery - 2VW30 model and the later 2VW35 plug-in model 4.4kW-hour Li-ion battery meaning could travel very few miles on battery power alone. It might be best described as an IC vehicle with enhanced stop start technology or perhaps with an electronically enhanced transmission. Toyota is not the only manufacturer to blur the hybrid definition and I'm sure their engineering is well thought out with improved MPG but sooner or later without an increased battery capacity I fear the emission regulatory authorities will cotton on to the fact it's essentially an IC car. So I am slightly puzzled Toyota have not developed more pure EV models?
 
What TV says about Nissan Leafs reminds me of something a bit off topic. The first time I saw a Nissan Leaf up close (2 in fact , in their own special charging bays) Parked in pride of place outside the factory (not UK) of a worldwide company that has soya and the fate of Polar bears at its core , while at the same time being a BIG global player in dairy foods.

Long story short . They were purchased to show how green and right on this company was and used to collect VIP's from the airport (yeah , I know , send me a S class next time) Anyhoo, It was soon discovered that during cold weather they could not be trusted to make it back to base with their precious cargo before running out of puff. So for a while a ICE car was sent along with them ...just in case !

Eventually they were 'retired' . Back on track . My guess is the electrification of classic cars might be driven by Hollywood L.A types and maybe rich people who live in Switzerland who really , really , really want to drive a 'dirty' classic but daren't.

I don't like to see cars in museums , but I would rather have that than see... but not hear a 1969 Maserati Miura go by sounding like a silenced vacuum cleaner.
 
In reply to this, I would pose the question- when is a hybrid not a hybrid? It's a terminological inexactitude derived from its biological origins where one species breeds with another implying a 50-50 contribution to the final product. Certainly until recently and helped by the introduction of plug-in versions hybrid motor cars were not propelled by a 50-50 mix of power sources . Checking on the Toyota Prius battery specifications for 2014 it appeared to be equipped the 1.5kw-hour NiMH battery - 2VW30 model and the later 2VW35 plug-in model 4.4kW-hour Li-ion battery meaning could travel very few miles on battery power alone. It might be best described as an IC vehicle with enhanced stop start technology or perhaps with an electronically enhanced transmission. Toyota is not the only manufacturer to blur the hybrid definition and I'm sure their engineering is well thought out with improved MPG but sooner or later without an increased battery capacity I fear the emission regulatory authorities will cotton on to the fact it's essentially an IC car. So I am slightly puzzled Toyota have not developed more pure EV models?
When I heard that hybrids were being bought as company cars for the tax benefits but driven as IC..... The same is alluded to for hybrid taxis elsewhere on this forum.

What seems to have died a death and I don't understand why is the EV with range extender. Distinct from hybrid in that its ICE is never mechanically coupled to the wheels I thought this a viable solution to the range anxiety problem while still allowing in essence a pure EV architecture. Was it lack of OEM experience with suitable (small) ICEs for range extenders that killed them or some other reason?
 
When I heard that hybrids were being bought as company cars for the tax benefits but driven as IC..... The same is alluded to for hybrid taxis elsewhere on this forum.

What seems to have died a death and I don't understand why is the EV with range extender. Distinct from hybrid in that its ICE is never mechanically coupled to the wheels I thought this a viable solution to the range anxiety problem while still allowing in essence a pure EV architecture. Was it lack of OEM experience with suitable (small) ICEs for range extenders that killed them or some other reason?

The range extender I am familiar with is BMW i3--- I'm guessing it stemmed from an era when battery technology realistically permitted range measured in double rather than treble figures. In the later versions of the i3 the REX [extended range] option was quietly dropped when battery capacity[ kWhr ] range was increased, before model itself was dropped . BMW claimed they lost money on the car but I suspect the truth is they made profit just not enough profit! Great pity because it was one of the first true EV models designed from the floor up rather than the let's stick and electric motor and battery into an existing model because it's cheaper/more profitable approach.
PS
I don't think it was removed for technical reasons because if anyone knows how to make small compact twin cylinder engines BMW does----it did have a very small petrol tank however because it was a range extender rather than an alternatIve power source as pointed out.
 

The range extender I am familiar with is BMW i3--- I'm guessing it stemmed from an era when battery technology realistically permitted range measured in double rather than treble figures. In the later versions of the i3 the REX [extended range] option was quietly dropped when battery capacity[ kWhr ] range was increased, before model itself was dropped . BMW claimed they lost money on the car but I suspect the truth is they made profit just not enough profit! Great pity because it was one of the first true EV models designed from the floor up rather than the let's stick and electric motor and battery into an existing model because it's cheaper/more profitable approach.
PS
I don't think it was removed for technical reasons because if anyone knows how to make small compact twin cylinder engines BMW does----it did have a very small petrol tank however because it was a range extender rather than an alternatIve power source as pointed out.

Probably right - battery tech stepped up to render the REx redundant. As well use the space a REx would take with a bigger battery.

BMW's ICE for it's REx was an abomination IMO. All it needed was the simplest, lightest, smallest cheapest engine that could provide 30hp. BMW took a very complex 60hp engine and detuned it to 30hp while retaining the complexity, weight, bulk and cost.
Others weren't much better. Audi proposed (an always thirsty) ****el on the basis that it's smooth running would be required. Rubbish. With no external torque drive to contend with the REx unit can be installed on mounts as soft as marshmallow with no negative consequence - or transmitted vibration. In it's defence, so pre-occupied with cheating the diesel emission tests I guess they weren't thinking straight.

The small fuel tank answered a Californian regulation stipulating range with REx deployed had to be less than range from battery. Why this was imposed on Europe is anyone's guess.

For the main part though, BMW got more right than wrong with the i3 and for that there's praise.
 

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