Employment dispute - advice please

[et0609]

Hi

Id be very grateful if anyone would share their thoughts on this which is a bit of a dilemma for me.

Right now I drive my own car for work and get paid expenses of 40ppm and an annual allowance of about £1k. My employer offered me a lease car a couple of months ago, any car I like, to start in April 09.

They have now told me they want me to drive an old van they have instead. The van is 5 years old and unreliable. This is in an attempt to save money apparently. My job does not in any way require me to need a van rather than a car.

I have said that Im not bothered about a lease car because I could get a good deal on a new car which I was thinking about already. But, by making me have a van, they no longer have to pay me the £1k allowance or the mileage rate.

I have checked my terms and conditions, and it does not state anywhere that should I be offered any company vehicle, I have to take it. Personally, I would rather keep using my own car which is far more reliable and comfortable.

Also, when the boss started there 3 years ago, the previous boss drove a 1 year old rover. He decided to get himself a new 5 series and keep the Rover as a sort of pool car for any employee to use. I suggested this could be done again with the van but the is not acceptable for some reason. I think this is because he doesnt want an employee to drive a car newer or better than his.

Any advice on what I should tell them before I go in all guns blazing??

Thank you
Mark

 

[et0609]

Hi

Id be very grateful if anyone would share their thoughts on this which is a bit of a dilemma for me.

Right now I drive my own car for work and get paid expenses of 40ppm and an annual allowance of about £1k. My employer offered me a lease car a couple of months ago, any car I like, to start in April 09.

They have now told me they want me to drive an old van they have instead. The van is 5 years old and unreliable. This is in an attempt to save money apparently. My job does not in any way require me to need a van rather than a car.

I have said that Im not bothered about a lease car because I could get a good deal on a new car which I was thinking about already. But, by making me have a van, they no longer have to pay me the £1k allowance or the mileage rate.

I have checked my terms and conditions, and it does not state anywhere that should I be offered any company vehicle, I have to take it. Personally, I would rather keep using my own car which is far more reliable and comfortable.

Also, when the boss started there 3 years ago, the previous boss drove a 1 year old rover. He decided to get himself a new 5 series and keep the Rover as a sort of pool car for any employee to use. I suggested this could be done again with the van but this is not acceptable for some reason. I think this is because he doesnt want an employee to drive a car newer or better than his.

Any advice on what I should tell them before I go in all guns blazing??

Thank you
Mark

 

[flango]

Difficult one, Is the car allowance and mileage rate in your T&C's or company policies or is it just an agreement you have with your employer? As that would make all the difference. If it is an agreement between the two of you not in writing they can withdraw it at any time and insist you use a company vehicle on company business. If it is in your T&C's or a company policy then it's a different matter and depends how it's worded in there as to what rights you have, hope that helps a little

 

[NewMB]

Well, as an employer myself, I can not think there is a rule or regulation anywhere that says that you can force a car onto an employee.

However, it may be suggested that it is a better solution for the company to give you a car (not I van) instead of paying you £0.40/mile. All depends on the mileage you do for the company.

Why they pay you an extra, taxable by you, allowance on top of the £0.40/mile is very suprising. Not something I would ever do.

If your employer is so worried about costs, he could legally pay you less for mileage and you just claim the difference back in tax credit (ie get £0.25 instead of £0.40 and claim the £0.15 as credit).

Re the van, if you use the van in your job, then fine. Take it but then you should not be liable for tax on it as it is a tool for your job. If it isn't, I think the best would be to say no to the van and keep your car and claim mileage expense at an agreed level.

Don't forget that many emplyers like showing off if newer cars than their employees. I have worked for at least two who were just like that. I am not. Mine is the oldest company car we have.... albeit the most powerful one.

Good Luck.

 

[219]

Don't know if this has changed since the last time I had use of a works' van .....

The taxman sees the benefit of a van as £500 per annum ; you pay tax on this at something like 23% which works out to about £120 a year or about a tenner a month . This includes your employer paying for all fuel for your own personal use as well as for business use . It pretty much amounts to completely free transport to and from work for you and a handy vehicle for all those tasks you wouldn't want to use your car for : taking rubbish to the dump , going to B&Q etc etc . You also keep the mileage down on your own car .

The above would be the upside .

The downside is as you have stated above . If the van is in as poor condition as you have stated and you really don't wish to drive it , there are various ways out .

Firstly - are the tyres , lights etc all legal and working ? As a driver - it is YOUR responsibility to check these things , YOU will get done if you get pulled over and you are entitled to refuse to drive it if it is in any way unroadworthy . If you end up insisting on a lot of faults being rectified before you drive it , which will cost money , they may change their minds ?

if they fix the van up , you can always take your own new car to work and park it next to your boss's Bummer , thus showing it up , and take the van out during the day , saving miles on your own car and preserving its value ; at night you leave the van at the workplace thus owing no tax on it and drive home in your nice , comfortable car .

 

[Dieselman]

Mods. Can we merge these threads please..

http://www.mbclub.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=64286

You need to read the T&C's of your contract and any written policies carefully.

If they say that the employer will provide a company vehicle of unspecified type then they may be able to do this, however if it says a company car then not.
If it says you have the option of taking an allowance at specified rates then that is contractual.

Any change to contract T&C's requires consultation and/or forward notice.

Assuming that your contract gives you the right to a car or allowance, whichever is your choice, then I think you would be in the right to tell your Boss to stick the van...but be warned it will be a rough ride....though some employers do need an occasional wakeup call..

 

[Sp!ke]

Threads merged.

 

[maddog]

Don't know if this has changed since the last time I had use of a works' van .....

The taxman sees the benefit of a van as £500 per annum ; you pay tax on this at something like 23% which works out to about £120 a year or about a tenner a month . This includes your employer paying for all fuel for your own personal use as well as for business use . It pretty much amounts to completely free transport to and from work for you and a handy vehicle for all those tasks you wouldn't want to use your car for : taking rubbish to the dump , going to B&Q etc etc . You also keep the mileage down on your own car .

Thats how it used to be but i think it has changed

I was offered a company car some years back OR a Transit pick up and they would pay for the fuel etc , i took the pick up , it cost me about £200 per year in tax and everything else was paid for worked out really well for me

It isnt the same as a car though , not as practical ie limited seats , difficult to park, not exactly comfy for long trips etc and i wouldnt take a 5 year old unreliable one just to help the company out

It must be cheaper to carry on what they are doing ie the £1k and 40ppm

 

[CE230]

What about pension rights too? Some schemes take into account car allowances as earning and this benefits the contributions by employee and employer.

 

[Rory]

What about pension rights too? Some schemes take into account car allowances as earning and this benefits the contributions by employee and employer.

I can't say that never happens, but it would be extremely unusual.

 

[Rory]

Don't know if this has changed since the last time I had use of a works' van .....

The taxman sees the benefit of a van as £500 per annum ;

It has changed - I think it's £3000 now. You only pay tax on that amount, so (if £3K is still correct) a 40% tax payer would pay £100/mth.

The tax is for private use, of course. I'd be a bit unhappy at being forced to take a van and then then having to pay tax on it. Only way of avoiding the tax is to have it in your contract that you will never use it privately. But then you've got to have another vehicle.

 

[flango]

It has changed - I think it's £3000 now. You only pay tax on that amount, so (if £3K is still correct) a 40% tax payer would pay £100/mth.

The tax is for private use, of course. I'd be a bit unhappy at being forced to take a van and then then having to pay tax on it. Only way of avoiding the tax is to have it in your contract that you will never use it privately. But then you've got to have another vehicle.

That is 100% spot on £3k liability cost to 40% tax payer £100 per month

 

[HowardD]

Hi

Id be very grateful if anyone would share their thoughts on this which is a bit of a dilemma for me.

Right now I drive my own car for work and get paid expenses of 40ppm and an annual allowance of about £1k. My employer offered me a lease car a couple of months ago, any car I like, to start in April 09.

They have now told me they want me to drive an old van they have instead. The van is 5 years old and unreliable. This is in an attempt to save money apparently. My job does not in any way require me to need a van rather than a car.

I have said that Im not bothered about a lease car because I could get a good deal on a new car which I was thinking about already. But, by making me have a van, they no longer have to pay me the £1k allowance or the mileage rate.

I have checked my terms and conditions, and it does not state anywhere that should I be offered any company vehicle, I have to take it. Personally, I would rather keep using my own car which is far more reliable and comfortable.

Also, when the boss started there 3 years ago, the previous boss drove a 1 year old rover. He decided to get himself a new 5 series and keep the Rover as a sort of pool car for any employee to use. I suggested this could be done again with the van but the is not acceptable for some reason. I think this is because he doesnt want an employee to drive a car newer or better than his.

Any advice on what I should tell them before I go in all guns blazing??

Thank you
Mark

Hi Mark,

I work in HR (or Compensation & Benefits) so here is my 2 pence.

From your description of the situation, I think you are being treated unreasonably, although I am sure you are also mindful that in the current climate you have a good job that you enjoy - and that counts for a lot.

I understand your dilemma. Do you make an issue of what is happening and where do you stand legally?

For the facts on Van Tax - I recommend you try this link. http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/vans/ A key point is that you pay van tax if have private use of the van.

For an unbiased opinion of your employment rights, ACAS is a great place to start 08457 474747 http://www.acas.org.uk/index.aspx?articleid=1461

ACAS may be able to clarify whether a verbal offer is as legally binding as a written one.

It may also be worth asking ACAS if the removal of the allowance (maybe the business mileage too, or forcing you to pay Van tax) would be an unlawful deduction from wages?

By the way, its not unusual for companies to take all earnings into account when they set methodologies for calculating pension contributions (both employer and employee). Assuming you have a company pension scheme then by losing any car allowance, it could mean company pension contributions are reduced.

If you do talk to ACAS, then I would suggest you sit down, write a factual set of notes about what happened, and the timelines so that you can be absolutely factual and unemotional when you discuss it with ACAS, or boss.

Your employer is obliged to provide you with a contract of employment and like you have done already, I would definitely have started there.

You could also discuss the situation informally with your manager, to demonstrate how reasonable your behaviour is. If that does not work, depending on the organisation (and it's size) you should also consider a formal grievance.

One possible compromise could be that you get a written commitment from your manager to give you the car that was promised in 6 months, and you keep the van until the car is delivered.

I hope this helps.
howard

 

[Stratman]

What would happen if the first time you drove the van it had an unfortunate accident, maybe even involving your bosses car

 

[Dieselman]

What would happen if the first time you drove the van it had an unfortunate accident, maybe even involving your bosses car

Ha ha, vans can be buggers to reverse when you're used to driving cars....

 

[dino645]

Its been a while since I had to do this.

I had an upstart manager I was trying to get rid of, so to I substantially downgraded his motor, and I knew that he was unhappy about it. He ended up leaving of his own accord.

But I think once you are given a company car, or allowance over a certain length of time, this cannot be taken away from you. Hence the offer of the van?

Make sure your job is safe.

Does seem very unreasonable.

 

[et0609]

Thank you to everyone for all your replies. The main issue for me is that although there may be advantages for the use of the van, I really dont want it. My employment status is a little confusing. The company I work for run a programme for which they receive management fees from the local authority. I am employed by the company but all the costs associated with my job are paid for by these management fees.

The chap who currently drives the van is to be given a new, bigger one and as the company purchased it outright, they dont want it sitting around idle. Its a small firm with 16 employees. Im the only one paid for in this way. Also, my contract is renewed annually after the local authority have confirmed funding is secure. The question of funding will never be an issue.

At the moment i do around 10,000 miles per year, but the 40ppm plus allowance dont actually cover my costs so I end up subsidising the true cost myself, around 19ppm I reckon. So the offer of a car was appealing, however, I have inherited some money and was looking to purchase as the timing seems to be quite good right now. I intended to reduce my mileage (which is very possible without a loss of service) to a level where 40ppm plus the allowance covers my costs. I have already found a couple of purchase deals which are far better than leasing deals I found, when I considered the extra I would pay towards the car, plus the extra tax.

At the moment, nothing has been decided and this is just something that may or may not come about, although Im sure it will.

My take on this was that there was nothing in my contract suggesting a vehicle is provided, however, it does detail allowances for what they call "occasional car users" of which I am one. I would imagine they would withdraw the £1k allowance each year as that is for people who use their own cars and give me a fuel card. They have already stated I do not have to use it for personal use and could drive to a garage where it is to be kept.

I think I will stand my ground on this, I will verify with ACAS my position legally and when the time comes when Im told exactly what it is they want to do, I will have all the facts to hand. I suppose I want to know if I have a right to refuse, which I think I do.

Thanks
Mark

 

[flango]

The advice to consult ACAS is good if you remember a few months ago a colleague of mine was being made unfairly redundant. With Advice from ACAS he screwed the company he was working for and the payout was double what they had originally offered him. Its always good to know your exact rights and where you stand in law as some companies think they are Immune and can ride rough shod over you until you point out the error of their ways.

good luck

 

[crockers]

Before you go in all guns blazing ask yourself some questions and answer them honestly.

Is my job safe?
Can I be replaced easily and more cheaply?
Am I being sidelined?
Is my company suffering financially?

 

[PXW]

I understand the point about your job's funding being from the LA, but I don't think that changes your status as an employee - where your employer gets the monmey from is not relevant. You would certainyl find that the local authority denied any responsibility for you very quickly!

I vaguely recall that a short term contract acquires some of the same employment rights as permanent contracts if you have been in post for more than 2 years - I can't recall the details but I'm pretty certain that your employer cannot hide completely behind your job being annualy renewed - though clearly if the funding stopped then your post would become redundant fairly quickly.