Engaging a Suspect - from Around the World

markjay

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Dryce

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I don't think your French link was remotely comparable.

And don't take UK police for granted.

Killing of man with table leg 'unlawful' | UK news | The Guardian

BBC ON THIS DAY | 14 | 1983: Man shot by police hunting David Martin

A French respondent to your comment might also offer up the Jean Charles de Menezes incident.

I would add that I think it's good to live in Britain. And we're lucky enough to live in a country where very few police officers are routinely armed - and where they tend to avoid using those firearms except as last resort.

But I don't think we should think we are so perfect that we can point the finger at other countries and say we are better than them.

The US police may come across as trigger happy in our media. They generally are not. They are routinely armed *BUT* they also routinely expect to encounter more people with firearms while carrying out their duties.
 
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markjay

markjay

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Clearly the above is only anecdotal evidence.

But, on this occasion, I am impressed with the response of the PCSOs. They appear to have had good training and acted bravely.

What I can't fathom is why armed police officers would reverse away to allow a car with two armed men to drive off.

As for Americans cops... well if you are stopped by one, no sudden moves seems like a good idea...
 
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renault12ts

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I don't think your French link was remotely comparable.

And don't take UK police for granted.

Killing of man with table leg 'unlawful' | UK news | The Guardian

BBC ON THIS DAY | 14 | 1983: Man shot by police hunting David Martin

A French respondent to your comment might also offer up the Jean Charles de Menezes incident.

I would add that I think it's good to live in Britain. And we're lucky enough to live in a country where very few police officers are routinely armed - and where they tend to avoid using those firearms except as last resort.

But I don't think we should think we are so perfect that we can point the finger at other countries and say we are better than them.

The US police may come across as trigger happy in our media. They generally are not. They are routinely armed *BUT* they also routinely expect to encounter more people with firearms while carrying out their duties.
I think we can rightly point our collective fingers at the US and proclaim from on high that we definitely are better than them. You had to go back to 1983, 1999 and 2005 to cite UK examples. They probably wouldn't have to back much further than last week to find examples.
 

Dryce

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But, on this occasion, I am impressed with the response of the PCSOs. They appear to have had good training and acted bravely.
Indeed.

What I can't fathom is why armed police officers would reverse away to allow a car with two armed men to drive off.
Where they armed? Not all police in France are routinely armed.

And if they were it depends on what they're armed with. Police traditionally tend to carry lower power weapons - pistols and carbines. Up against bad guys with assault rifles and looking like they may have plenty of ammunition and protective vests then they probably feel badly outgunned.
 

Dryce

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I think we can rightly point our collective fingers at the US and proclaim from on high that we definitely are better than them. You had to go back to 1983, 1999 and 2005 to cite UK examples. They probably wouldn't have to back much further than last week to find examples.
I did qualify things.

Apart from being a larger country the US police are generally armed and operate in an environment where access and use of firearms is much more prevalent.

Proportionately more officers die in the US. The number per annum varies but ranges from about 6 to 10 times the UK rate relative to population size.
 
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markjay

markjay

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...And if they were it depends on what they're armed with. Police traditionally tend to carry lower power weapons - pistols and carbines. Up against bad guys with assault rifles and looking like they may have plenty of ammunition and protective vests then they probably feel badly outgunned.
I am afraid that's not how I see it.

Their duty to protect the public is not conditional on the weapons ratio (assuming they were armed).

They should have engaged the occupants of the car even if it meant they were outgunned and might get hurt. And they should have definitely not reversed to allow the armed terrorists free passage.

That's their job... to protect the public.
 
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Giantvanman

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This case interesting because of the information that was routinely not reported or mentioned. AKAIK and remember, the deceased had wrapped a table leg with a curved end in a plastic bag and had spent some time in the pub, telling people that he had a sawn off shotgun.
The officers on the scene got it wrong in hindsight but they had reports of the earlier conduct of the deceased. He was told to put the 'shotgun' down but he didn't.

Who in their right mind would gamble that the information was wrong, just in case the information might be wrong?

Hindsight is always perfect and until the 'you should have' brigade have faced anything remotely similar, up close and personal to use an Americanism, they should keep their armchair judgements to themselves…………this is in no way a dig at Dryce, just an observation from an insider, as it were.
 

Scott_F

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I am afraid that's not how I see it.

Their duty to protect the public is not conditional on the weapons ratio (assuming they were armed).

They should have engaged the occupants of the car even if it meant they were outgunned and might get hurt. And they should have definitely not reversed to allow the armed terrorists free passage.

That's their job... to protect the public.
Yes that is their job.

But if you're paid 25k Euros a year (maybe 30k with overtime) and are armed with a 9mm pistol (and maybe 20 rounds of ammunition) would you stick around to engage two murderous suicide merchants armed with automatic rifles ?

I wouldn't.
 

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At a tangent, this thread makes me think of my first trip to the States in the 80s, when I met an ex pat cop who had joined the Santa Monica PD as a cop there. He said the difference in attitude was incredible,and despite the gun culture, he felt much more relaxed there. People were more respectful (having seen the armoury in his car and about his person, it was no wonder), and he was more likely to get assaulted or abused here, and this is probably still the case. I don't think anyone in their right mind would want to engage with a trigger or taser happy cop, and all the cops I know here (most retired now) would not have chosen to be armed. The problem with carrying weapons is that if deployed, it never ends well.

In my first week of that visit, 32 people were shot in freeway road rage incidents. Ironically, in a clothes hire shop (needed a tux) a few days later, the shop guy didn't seem very pro Brit, and mentioned what a violet place the UK must be. In disbelief, I asked him what made him think this, and this was when I learnt that Michael Ryan had just run amok in Hungerford. Coincidentally, I was also in Los Angeles when the Dunblane shootings happened.
 

Scott_F

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In disbelief, I asked him what made him think this, and this was when I learnt that Michael Ryan had just run amok in Hungerford. Coincidentally, I was also in Los Angeles when the Dunblane shootings happened.
For our personal safety and well-being, could you please refrain from any further visits to the US.
 

MD5

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^

Ha ha! I've been many times since, and without further major incidents afaik! The thought crossed my mind when Dunblane happened though.
 

Dryce

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I am afraid that's not how I see it.

Their duty to protect the public is not conditional on the weapons ratio (assuming they were armed).

They should have engaged the occupants of the car even if it meant they were outgunned and might get hurt. And they should have definitely not reversed to allow the armed terrorists free passage.

That's their job... to protect the public.
Well you maybe don't see it as it actually is.

Our police have a *tradition* of putting themselves in harms way to protect us. But that doesn't mean it is reasonable of us to expect them to take on suicidal risks.

In the French case I have no idea if the poilce were armed. But it's also the case that the bad guys are actually leaving - and that they were not directly protecting any members of the public.

So unless you can present some additional evidence as to their behaviour I'm not going to concur with your judgment.
 

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That's their job... to protect the public.
Hard to do though when lying dead in a patrol car, full of bullets.

Martyrdom is the creed of their foe. What ideology would you die for? Would you sacrifice your life 'to protect the public'?
 
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markjay

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Obviously, we do not know the full circumstances. Perhaps they were unarmed, perhaps they received orders by radio to pull back.

But, looking at the video footage, the police car blocked the path of the terrorists' vehicle. They moved out of the way to let the terrorists pass, and, for all they knew, continue with their murdering rampage.

Yes, they should have left the vehicle blocking the terrorists' path, and either return fire, or take cover behind the vehicle. They were in Central Paris.... not a desert outpost. Clearly help will arrive soon, either from the many soldiers who are patrolling the streets of Paris these days or from fellow police officers.

To those who said that the French police officers are lowly paid and unmotivated and wouldn't risk their lives... quite possibly, I do not disagree that there may be reasons behind their poor performance, but the fact remains that - for whatever reasons - they did not perform as expected from a police officers.

And to those who said they would have done the same under similar circumstances.... great. I personally would not jump into a burning building, which I why I did not choose a career as a fireman. I do, however, expect from those who do decide to become firemen, to do just that.
 
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markjay

markjay

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Some little-known facts about the 1972 attack during the Munich Olympic Games.....


From here:

The Massacre at the 1972 Munich Olympics Video

'....The plan was for the policemen inside the plane to overpower the two terrorist leaders when they inspected the aircraft. And then the sharpshooters would be given the orders to shoot the remaining terrorists guarding the hostages.

....the policemen inside the aircraft abandoned the mission without notifying their superiors. When the two terrorist leaders discovered an empty aircraft they knew it was a set up and began running back to the helicopters...."


From here:


1972 Munich Olympics ? Day of terror shook the world


'At the military airport at Furstenfeldbruck, a Boeing 707 was supposed to take the terrorists and their hostages to Cairo. Inside the plane were police dressed as crew members who were supposed to attack the gunmen and free the victims.


Just minutes before the helicopters arrived, though, the police on the plane decided they wanted no part of a suicide mission. They took a vote, and decided to get out.


"We were trained for everyday offenses, to be close to the people, unarmed - but not for an action against paramilitary trained terrorists," former Munich police chief Manfred Schreiber said in a 1996 interview.'


Is this acceptable...? Would British Police officers have done the same?
 

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Obviously, we do not know the full circumstances. Perhaps they were unarmed, perhaps they received orders by radio to pull back.

But, looking at the video footage, the police car blocked the path of the terrorists' vehicle. They moved out of the way to let the terrorists pass, and, for all they knew, continue with their murdering rampage.
No we don't know. We don't know what the terrorist had strapped to his waist - a suicide belt? If so, all they had to do was drive up to the patrol car and two officers are no more.

Yes, they should have left the vehicle blocking the terrorists' path, and either return fire, or take cover behind the vehicle. They were in Central Paris.... not a desert outpost. Clearly help will arrive soon, either from the many soldiers who are patrolling the streets of Paris these days or from fellow police officers.
They would have been shot to pieces if they'd attempted to leave the car. The incident preceded 'these days'. What soldiers then?



And to those who said they would have done the same under similar circumstances.... great. I personally would not jump into a burning building, which I why I did not choose a career as a fireman. I do, however, expect from those who do decide to become firemen, to do just that.
Risk from burning building - calculable. Risk from two psychos with unknown degree of armament - incalculable. Not comparable at all.
 

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Why are you even comparing the French incident (a patrol car with officers armed with pistols at best) with a planned siege that only changed slant when the enemy were confronted with armoured vehicles?
The comparison is meaningless.
 

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Well they weren't there at the time to make a difference at that point in time and the police officers were being shot at while sitting in an unarmoured car lacking the weaponry to fight back. To expect them to have behaved differently is I think unreasonable and I very much doubt anyone holding a contrary view would have behaved differently faced with the same.
 

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