EV powered by coal?

[markjay]

This is a great example as to why EVs are a winner.

You can seamlessly switch the energy source in the background, without owners being even aware - coal, gas, solar, wind, hydro, nuclear - it takes the nation a very short space of time to change the energy source.

Compare it to how things were up to now... how long did it take until only unleaded fuel was sold in petrol stations? How many years it took the government to lure us into Diesels due to the lower CO2 emissions? And how many years will it now take to get rid of the old polluting Diesels cars?

In comparison, switching EVs from being 'fuelled' by gas to being 'fuelled' by coal takes days/weeks rather than years/decades.

Isn't this marvellous? The future is bright.

 

[markjay]

Australians who rightly bemoan paying any form of ‘energy tax’ whilst their ‘green’ government sells cheap coal to the Chinese to burn in their ever increasing number of gigantic fossil fuel burners. . Flourishing to accommodate our greed for their cheap products. Me included IMA.

The Aussies have a unique problem. Their electricity is produced from coal, of which they have plenty. Their transport system however is powered by liquid fuel, of which they have very little, and most of it is in fact LPG. So, if the tankers supply of oil to Australia is disrupted, be it due to oil shortages, an embargo, war, etc etc - modern life will come to a screeching halt with all cars and trucks immobilised. In the case of Australia, a migration to EVs is a must and in fact has become a matter of national security for the reasons mentioned above.

 

[Dryce]

In comparison, switching EVs from being 'fuelled' by gas to being 'fuelled' by coal takes days/weeks rather than years/decades.

Isn't this marvellous? The future is bright.

It's all rather marvellous ...... until it comes to the point wher you have to generate the 'leccy' for more than just a few EVs that are run as second cars or limited mileage.

EVs are in the real world but the usage patterns are not. As a minority running lower mileages they are manageable.

But beyond the point where they impact the grid then they start to rather break down that apparent seamlessness.

And then add in the push to move to electricity for HGVs and the move to reduce the use of gas for heating.

Brown outs and electricity rationing or energy price hikes ...... maybe not so bright.

 

[markjay]

It's all rather marvellous ...... until it comes to the point wher you have to generate the 'leccy' for more than just a few EVs that are run as second cars or limited mileage.

EVs are in the real world but the usage patterns are not. As a minority running lower mileages they are manageable.

But beyond the point where they impact the grid then they start to rather break down that apparent seamlessness.

And then add in the push to move to electricity for HGVs and the move to reduce the use of gas for heating.

Brown outs and electricity rationing or energy price hikes ...... maybe not so bright.

Absolutely. Hence why the move the EVs has to be accompanied with reversal of the trend in recent decades towards maximum personal mobility, where everyone use their cars to go everywhere all the time.... it is just not sustainable in the longer run. More local shopping... (much) more and (far) better public transport... less leisure travel... etc. And resist the pressures from the auto-makers lobby for a year-on-year increase in production.

 

[Harrythedog]

Absolutely. Hence why the move the EVs has to be accompanied with reversal of the trend in recent decades towards maximum personal mobility, where everyone use their cars to go everywhere all the time.... it is just not sustainable in the longer run. More local shopping... (much) more and (far) better public transport... less leisure travel... etc. And resist the pressures from the auto-makers lobby for a year-on-year increase in production.

I think people who live in rural and semi-rural areas will strongly disagree

 

[Steveml63]

Hi,
As I said earlier - hydrogen is the future - especially for buses, trucks and ships.
Even cars will probably transition to hydrogen fuel cells - driving electric motors.
The huge advantages of hydrogen are its energy density and the speed of refuelling is similar to petrol/diesel - unlike the long charging times of EVs.
There are so many ways that hydrogen can be produced - each are colour coded to make it easy for people to know what method was used!

Green hydrogen – electrolysis of water -known as green because the electricity used to split the water is produced using renewable energy (typically solar PV)
Blue hydrogen – this is sourced from fossil fuel – but the CO2 is captured and stored underground (carbon sequestration). Companies are also looking to utilise this captured carbon – known as CCSU Carbon Capture, Storage & Utilisation. As no CO2 is emitted into the atmosphere. Blue hydrogen is classed as being carbon neutral
Grey hydrogen – this is also produced from fossil fuel – normally by the steam methane reforming (SMR) process. During this process CO2 is emitted into the atmosphere – so this is not a carbon neutral process.
Black or Brown hydrogen – this is produced from coal. This normally uses a gasification process – however this is a very polluting process that releases both CO2 and carbon monoxide into the atmosphere
Turquoise hydrogen can be extracted by using the thermal splitting of methane via pyrolysis. This method captures the carbon as a solid form – rather than CO2 gas.
Purple hydrogen – this is made by using nuclear power and heat through a combined chem-thermal electrolysis splitting of water
Pink hydrogen – this is generated through electrolysis of water using electricity produced by a nuclear plant
Red hydrogen – is produced through the high temperature catalytic splitting of water using nuclear thermal power as the energy source.

I am currently working on a range of hydrogen projects - e.g. a waste to hydrogen system that produces 15 tons of hydrogen from 200 tons of domestic household waste - with no emissions!
A hydrogen fuel cell bus project - the bus can travel 100km on 6.5kg of hydrogen!

Cheers
Steve

 

[markjay]

I think people who live in rural and semi-rural areas will strongly disagree

People who live in rural areas are not the problem... they are very few, and they can keep using their cars. It's the millions who live on cities and towns and drive to the shops, school run, commute to work (less so these days), etc etc, who create congestion. The farmers and their neighbours can be exempt, no problem.

 

[GeeJayW]

People who live in rural areas are not the problem... they are very few, and they can keep using their cars. It's the millions who live on cities and towns and drive to the shops, school run, commute to work (less so these days), etc etc, who create congestion. The farmers and their neighbours can be exempt, no problem.

Know lots about living in a rural community?

 

[Bellow]

The huge advantages of hydrogen are its energy density

Hugely misleading as it overlooks the sheer volume hydrogen occupies. Weight can be tolerated, excessive volume given over to fuel storage cannot be so easily be accepted.

and the speed of refuelling is similar to petrol/diesel - unlike the long charging times of EVs.

Sloshes into its 3000psi tank just like petrol or diesel....

 

[merc estate]

Watch this, this is the eye opener and shows you how corrupt it all is, its all about the moneyWhen you watch this watch the politicans run for the hills when you are them about renewable energy, which it cutting down the trees as that means they can grow again.
As a point of interest the busses in London were hydrogen powered but were rubbish, so now they run them on diesel but don't tell anyone.

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Michael Moore presents Planet of the Humans, a documentary that dares to say what no one else will — that we are losing the ...
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[markjay]

Know lots about living in a rural community?

Educate me

In any event, I suggested that those living in rural communities, will be allowed to keep doing whatever it is that they are doping now, and be exempt from any automotive clampdown, which - as I said - should apply only to cities and towns (after public transport has been improved) where the population centres are.

 

[ChrisHGTV]

Hi,
As I said earlier - hydrogen is the future - especially for buses, trucks and ships.
Even cars will probably transition to hydrogen fuel cells - driving electric motors.
The huge advantages of hydrogen are its energy density and the speed of refuelling is similar to petrol/diesel - unlike the long charging times of EVs.
There are so many ways that hydrogen can be produced - each are colour coded to make it easy for people to know what method was used!

Green hydrogen – electrolysis of water -known as green because the electricity used to split the water is produced using renewable energy (typically solar PV)
Blue hydrogen – this is sourced from fossil fuel – but the CO2 is captured and stored underground (carbon sequestration). Companies are also looking to utilise this captured carbon – known as CCSU Carbon Capture, Storage & Utilisation. As no CO2 is emitted into the atmosphere. Blue hydrogen is classed as being carbon neutral
Grey hydrogen – this is also produced from fossil fuel – normally by the steam methane reforming (SMR) process. During this process CO2 is emitted into the atmosphere – so this is not a carbon neutral process.
Black or Brown hydrogen – this is produced from coal. This normally uses a gasification process – however this is a very polluting process that releases both CO2 and carbon monoxide into the atmosphere
Turquoise hydrogen can be extracted by using the thermal splitting of methane via pyrolysis. This method captures the carbon as a solid form – rather than CO2 gas.
Purple hydrogen – this is made by using nuclear power and heat through a combined chem-thermal electrolysis splitting of water
Pink hydrogen – this is generated through electrolysis of water using electricity produced by a nuclear plant
Red hydrogen – is produced through the high temperature catalytic splitting of water using nuclear thermal power as the energy source.

I am currently working on a range of hydrogen projects - e.g. a waste to hydrogen system that produces 15 tons of hydrogen from 200 tons of domestic household waste - with no emissions!
A hydrogen fuel cell bus project - the bus can travel 100km on 6.5kg of hydrogen!

Cheers
Steve

Gold hydrogen as well!

 

[markjay]

Hi,

The huge advantages of hydrogen are its energy density and the speed of refuelling is similar to petrol/diesel - unlike the long charging times of EVs.

No issue with fuel cells... but regarding EV charging:

From the Hyundai website:

"In the long range battery version (72.6 kWh), IONIQ 5’s 800V battery system offers the following charging times:

350 kW DC station: Charging time 18 minutes from 10 to 80%. Range added from 5 minutes of charging: 111 km.

50 kW DC station: Charging time 56 min 30 sec from 10 to 80%. Range added from 5 minutes of charging: 28 km."

This does not seem bad at all...?

 

[Piff]

Did you see the recent Guy Martin TV programme where he tried to build the worlds fastest electric car?
Interesting long distance journey he made. Faulty charging points. Range not as expected. Extortionate costs of fast chargers. Would have been much cheaper & quicker by diesel.
How does that convince the buying public to switch?

 

[Harrythedog]

People who live in rural areas are not the problem... they are very few, and they can keep using their cars. It's the millions who live on cities and towns and drive to the shops, school run, commute to work (less so these days), etc etc, who create congestion. The farmers and their neighbours can be exempt, no problem.

I think you grossly underestimate the number of people who don’t live in an urban area notwithstanding the many urban dwellers who don’t have easy access to the facilities you mention

 

[GeeJayW]

Educate me

In any event, I suggested that those living in rural communities, will be allowed to keep doing whatever it is that they are doping now, and be exempt from any automotive clampdown, which - as I said - should apply only to cities and towns (after public transport has been improved) where the population centres are.

And when diesel and gasoline production has been scaled back, where do you think the carrot crunchers are going to get their fuel from and how cheap do you think it will be?

You talk about public transport being improved in the cities, when in many rural areas public transport is almost non existent. Dr. Beeching made a cracking job of getting rid of thousands of miles of rural railways and things haven’t improved much since. Without access to a car/motorcycle, many in the rural communities can become very isolated.

Rural areas aren’t just the preserve of farmers, agricultural workers and people sitting about in smocks chewing on a blade of grass… Most of us have to drive somewhere to work or shop or take the kids to school in another village/town, because there can be bugger all in terms of local services and amenities.

 

[markjay]

I think you grossly underestimate the number of people who don’t live in an urban area...

I don't think I did:

....notwithstanding the many urban dwellers who don’t have easy access to the facilities you mention

That's a chicken and egg situation... they need cars because they don't have good public transport, but we won't be developing the public transport network for them because they can use their cars... my 'vision' is one of affordable and efficient public transport, as a pre-condition for restricting private car usage.

In the nineteenth century, and in the first half of the twentieth century, we built railways and tram lines and underground transport and added coach and bus routes like it was going out of fashion. Then private cars took over, and we started building motorways instead and (almost) stopped enhancing our public transport system. Why?

 

[Harrythedog]

I don't think I did:

That's a chicken and egg situation... they need cars because they don't have good public transport, but we won't be developing the public transport network for them because they can use their cars... my 'vision' is one of affordable and efficient public transport, as a pre-condition for restricting private car usage.

In the nineteenth century, and in the first half of the twentieth century, we built railways and tram lines and underground transport and added coach and bus routes like it was going out of fashion. Then private cars took over, and we started building motorways instead and (almost) stopped enhancing our public transport system. Why?

Nearly 10m people is hardly very few

 

[markjay]

And when diesel and gasoline production has been scaled back, where do you think the carrot crunchers are going to get their fuel from and how cheap do you think it will be?

You talk about public transport being improved in the cities, when in many rural areas public transport is almost non existent. Dr. Beeching made a cracking job of getting rid of thousands of miles of rural railways and things haven’t improved much since. Without access to a car/motorcycle, many in the rural communities can become very isolated.

Rural areas aren’t just the preserve of farmers, agricultural workers and people sitting about in smocks chewing on a blade of grass… Most of us have to drive somewhere to work or shop or take the kids to school in another village/town, because there can be bugger all in terms of local services and amenities.

My SIL's retired parents inherited some farmland in NI. They refurbed the farmhouse a few years back, and have been spending several months a year there since. Their neighbours work the land. We are invited to stay with them, so will report back. Apparently, access is via a dirt road, and the nearest building is in another farm two miles away. They said there's no mobile phone reception in a radius of several miles (let alone Internet...). They just bought a 20-years old 4x4 that they intend to drive to NI and keep in the farm as local transport. It will be interesting....

 

[Dryce]

No issue with fuel cells... but regarding EV charging:

From the Hyundai website:

"In the long range battery version (72.6 kWh), IONIQ 5’s 800V battery system offers the following charging times:

350 kW DC station: Charging time 18 minutes from 10 to 80%. Range added from 5 minutes of charging: 111 km.

50 kW DC station: Charging time 56 min 30 sec from 10 to 80%. Range added from 5 minutes of charging: 28 km."

Interesting implication. To charge the 72.6kWh to 80% from 10% (ie. 51kWh) takes the equivalent of 105kWh output from the 350kW charger.

111km range requires 29kWh from the 350kW charger.

Suppose you commute 15 miles each way - 30 mile commute - 48km. And a bit of running about - 55.5km.

So that's 29kWH every two days - so 14.5kWh *pet day*.

So average UK household consumption is 8 to 10kWh.

So just one EV basically increases electricity demand by around 2.5 times. Household has a seconf EV ....... OH DEAR, We're at 4x demand.

And then they ditch their gas boiler for electricity ...... does that bump things up to 5 or 6x?

We traditionally have cheaper overnight tariffs for those using heating .... but these customers will be increasingly competing with EV owners - which changes the overnight baseload economics. (It also presumably starts to change the economics of pump storage hydro).

This does not seem bad at all...?

You think?