EV powered by coal?

[st13phil]

The original strategy was shale gas, as we have around 40 years worth in the UK (current estimate). But it's such a political hot potato, quite unwarranted unfortunately.

We keep coming back to the 'zero carbon' dogma that @Dryce correctly identified.

I don't think many people realise quite how precarious our electricity generation capability is currently, let alone when we add in the policy commitment to decommission coal fired power generation by 2025, and - somehow or another - reduce the use of gas-powered generation too. All to support the dogma.

Nuclear has potential to provide clean (in CO2 emissions terms) energy, but as has been previously mentioned, it has a long environmental tail in terms of fuel disposal - "would you prefer to be hung or shot?" - plus it has a long leadtime to commission. I haven't seen any serious commitment to building new capacity over the last few years meaning that there will be little or no new nuclear capacity within the next 8-10 years, i.e. when we need it.

And all the time we are supposed to be shifting to EV's which will potentially double, treble or quadruple demand if mass adoption actually happens.

Bluntly, the numbers don't add up. And that's not a "chicken little" comment, it's based on reality - a place we all exist in, whether or not our policy makers believe it.

 

[Harrythedog]

I sense a lot of resistance here.... but if I'm honest, to a great extent it seems to me to be 'top-down', i.e. start with the premise and then come-up with the reasoning for it. Personal opinion...

That seems to be a default end of discussion answer and it’s not so.
I can go half a mile from my home and see street upon street of terraced houses, mostly flats, with cars parked bumper to bumper and I can’t conceivably see a solution to getting them all charged over night. If there’s a plan to get this done then let’s see it.
You wouldn’t buy the foundations of a house to live in with no definitive completion date.

 

[markjay]

That seems to be a default end of discussion answer and it’s not so.
I can go half a mile from my home and see street upon street of terraced houses, mostly flats, with cars parked bumper to bumper and I can’t conceivably see a solution to getting them all charged over night. If there’s a plan to get this done then let’s see it.
You wouldn’t buy the foundations of a house to live in with no definitive completion date.

Where I live in London, all of the lampposts were fitted with 5.5kW Siemens chargers by Ubitricity (now owned by Shell). Local residents with EVs plug them in overnight, them move them to another spot in the morning. New EVs have a range of 200+ miles, so the typical runabout will only need charging once every other week. Those with a long out-of-town daily commute will not buy an EV just yet, but will probably start doing so once workplace car parks start fitting chargers as standard.

Complete guide to the Ubitricity charging network | DrivingElectric

Here's how to use the Shell-owned Ubitricity network, which offers convenient on-street charging through lamp-posts and bollards

www.drivingelectric.com

This is just another example of something that people said "can't be done" and "won't work", yet someone didn't give up and found a way to do it.

Attached is a screenshot from the Ubitricity app taken just now. Green means charging point is free, grey means in use.

When this solution gets to your area (and I appreciate it will take time), will you still maintain that it's not possible?

 

[KennyN]

When this solution gets to your area (and I appreciate it will take time), will you still maintain that it's not possible?

Your screenshot shows a total of four charging points on Clarendon Gardens .

Google Maps

Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.

www.google.com

Lots of vehicles potentially needing filled up with leccy , although not at the same time.

We all know we will be forced into an electric car , or completely off the road, at some point in the future but there are some places that it (charging) just wont work.

Not everyone is fortunate enough to have off street parking with their own charger or chargers and parking at work.

We have a chap at work who has just bought a used Leaf , he commutes 110 miles a day and the advertised range of the Nissan is just over 130 miles. In winter he will need to charge the car at work or he will not make it home or will have to stop at a charging point , not fun at 04:00 on a December morning , but he was warned.

K

 

[Harrythedog]

Where I live in London, all of the lampposts were fitted with 5.5kW Siemens chargers by Ubitricity (now owned by Shell). Local residents with EVs plug them in overnight, them move them to another spot in the morning. New EVs have a range of 200+ miles, so the typical runabout will only need charging once every other week. Those with a long out-of-town daily commute will not buy an EV just yet, but will probably start doing so once workplace car parks start fitting chargers as standard.

Complete guide to the Ubitricity charging network | DrivingElectric

Here's how to use the Shell-owned Ubitricity network, which offers convenient on-street charging through lamp-posts and bollards

www.drivingelectric.com

This is just another example of something that people said "can't be done" and "won't work", yet someone didn't give up and found a way to do it.

Attached is a screenshot from the Ubitricity app taken just now. Green means charging point is free, grey means in use.

When this solution gets to your area (and I appreciate it will take time), will you still maintain that it's not possible?

So the solution is to install a lamp post every 4.5 m or so ?
Your photo shows approximately 40 charging points yet it doesn’t show how many cars “reside” in that area.
A range of 200 miles means everyone will only be able to travel half the length of a small country, not much use really.
Im not against EV’s, I’d love to have one but I’d need it to do what my current car does and at the moment that isn’t feasible.
In a nutshell I’ve no confidence in the snake oil approach being fed as to the benefits of EV’s, and I’ve a sneaking suspicion that a lot of the World’s major car manufacturers feel the same way

 

[ChipChop]

Where I live in London, all of the lampposts were fitted with 5.5kW Siemens chargers by Ubitricity (now owned by Shell). Local residents with EVs plug them in overnight, them move them to another spot in the morning. New EVs have a range of 200+ miles, so the typical runabout will only need charging once every other week. Those with a long out-of-town daily commute will not buy an EV just yet, but will probably start doing so once workplace car parks start fitting chargers as standard.

Complete guide to the Ubitricity charging network | DrivingElectric

Here's how to use the Shell-owned Ubitricity network, which offers convenient on-street charging through lamp-posts and bollards

www.drivingelectric.com

This is just another example of something that people said "can't be done" and "won't work", yet someone didn't give up and found a way to do it.

Attached is a screenshot from the Ubitricity app taken just now. Green means charging point is free, grey means in use.

When this solution gets to your area (and I appreciate it will take time), will you still maintain that it's not possible?

Londoners have had a "green" zero emissions (at the tailpipe) electric public transport system, the London Underground, for over a century. Not much of a climate emergency really when the preferred early adopter solution to going "green' increases consumption of new products instead of decreasing it.

 

[markjay]

Your screenshot shows a total of four charging points on Clarendon Gardens .

Google Maps

Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.

www.google.com

Lots of vehicles potentially needing filled up with leccy , although not at the same time.

We all know we will be forced into an electric car , or completely off the road, at some point in the future but there are some places that it (charging) just wont work.

Not everyone is fortunate enough to have off street parking with their own charger or chargers and parking at work.

We have a chap at work who has just bought a used Leaf , he commutes 110 miles a day and the advertised range of the Nissan is just over 130 miles. In winter he will need to charge the car at work or he will not make it home or will have to stop at a charging point , not fun at 04:00 on a December morning , but he was warned.

K

The Leaf was first introduced in 2011... old tech even in revamped version.

I researched it before committing myself to an EV. Plenty of YouTube videos testing and reviewing EVs. The EV I went for - IONIQ 5 - delivered in all tests the claimed mileage of 280-300 (depending on variant) in normal driving, or even exceeded it in Eco mode.

There's a bloke on YouTube who apparently made it his life mission to test how quickly can a 1,000km (600m) journey be completed by different EV models (including charging stops in service stations in Norway). The top 10 EVs (including the Tesla Mod 3) achieved this in 10 hours or less.

Sure, you can make a 600m journey in well under 10 hours in almost any ICE car. Some Diesels will even achieve this without refueling stops.

But we're still talking average progress at 60 mph for the entire journey. That comes pretty close to ICE, and will only improve over time.

Of course it's not for everyone yet. When mobile phones became commonplace in the early nineties, it benefited mostly city-dwellers because of poor infrastructure outside of densely-populated areas. 30 years later, there are still some remote spots with no mobile phone reception, but overall we're doing fine.

And personally I regard the (justofied) complaints about the Leaf range the same as the complaints in 2007 that the iPhone 3 battery does not last enough for a whole day. The complaints were valid, but things improved since.

 

[st13phil]

[thread drift mode]

30 years later, there are still some remote spots with no mobile phone reception, but overall we're doing fine.

Don't get me started on the pi$$-poor mobile network coverage we still endure in the UK. Personally, I don't consider a proportion of the motorway network nor large swathes of moderately populated areas of the country "remote spots", but perhaps our telco's and London-dwellers do?

[/thread drift mode]

Back on topic, many (me included) expect the example of mobile comm's roll-out to be mirrored by the roll-out of EV charging facilities. 10 years down the road I fully expect there to be significant swathes of the country with very poor or zero public charging coverage, while those in the south-east labour under the illusion that everything's fine and dandy.

 

[markjay]

[thread drift mode]

Don't get me started on the pi$$-poor mobile network coverage we still endure in the UK. Personally, I don't consider a proportion of the motorway network nor large swathes of moderately populated areas of the country "remote spots", but perhaps our telco's and London-dwellers do?

[/thread drift mode]

It isn't drift.... it's a valid analogy.

What is your personal conclusion then?

That mobile phones are great, but they could have better-managed the rollout of infrastructure across the country?

Or that mobile phones should have never been sold to the public in the first place, and that we would all be better-off sticking with the BT phones using analogue copper wires?

 

[SpikyMikey]

Or that mobile phones should have never been sold to the public in the first place, and that we would all be better-off sticking with the BT phones using analogue copper wires?

The trouble in sticking to BT phones is that I find the wire is never long enough when I use it in the car

 

[190]

Surely the crucial goal in my mind for this so called ‘green government’ is to convince the masses of the merits of becoming ‘carbon neutral’ at enormous personal cost.
To even contemplate the idea that public transport could replace a family vehicle for a simple shopping trip is beyond my comprehension. I’m no dinosaur, but this latest government campaign just doesn’t add up.

I don't doubt that changing public opinion is possible but the politicians have to convince themselves first. Until they are all using EV's or public transport then the rest of us are unlikely to take them too seriously.

Public transport as a solution is beyond my comprehension too. Outside big cities the very idea that public transport can be used for simple shopping trips is a very bad joke and when anyone suggests it I feel they have lost the plot. We are not only talking about rural dwellers either. I live in a semi rural village just 3 miles from a town but there is only one bus service every hour and that's a 3/4 mile walk and at the other end it doesn't go anywhere near the supermarkets or out of town shops. What it does do is go all round the houses ( but not my House) so that the 3 miles takes 40 minutes each way. I could nearly walk faster. There would have to be radical changes for public transport to be viable and the economics just don't add up and never will.

I'll buy an EV when they get to be sensibly priced which is 3-5 years off yet.

 

[st13phil]

What is your personal conclusion then?

That mobile phones are great, but they could have better-managed the rollout of infrastructure across the country?

^ This.

However, the migration to mobile comm's was always optional, whereas the migration to EV's is effectively mandatory and, regrettably, I see no drive (no pun intended) to better manage the EV charging infrastructure rollout than there was for mobile comm's, so fully expect it to result in a similar dog's breakfast.

 

[BPD07]

^ This.

However, the migration to mobile comm's was always optional, whereas the migration to EV's is effectively mandatory and, regrettably, I see no drive (no pun intended) to better manage the EV charging infrastructure rollout than there was for mobile comm's, so fully expect it to result in a similar dog's breakfast.

We will have had 20 years from the Leaf to the mandated last sale of ICE’s, allow ten years for them to wash out means your mandatory migration to BEVs is over 30 years. Doesn’t seem to rushed to me.

 

[davymead]

We all know we will be forced into an electric car , or completely off the road, at some point in the future

This is the bit that undoubtedly sticks in a whole lot of peoples craws, certainly mine.
SO many people I rub shoulders with would seem to fervently disagree with being ‘forced off the road’ by anybody, least of all by a bunch of politicians who they believe are lower than a snakes belly. Taking the public for imbeciles is a huge mistake, but one ingrained in the minds of the ruling classes. I fervently believe that this time a lot of people are up for a fall, and at enormous cost, money we can I’ll afford to waste.

 

[markjay]

This is the bit that undoubtedly sticks in a whole lot of peoples craws, certainly mine.
SO many people I rub shoulders with would seem to fervently disagree with being ‘forced off the road’ by anybody, least of all by a bunch of politicians who they believe are lower than a snakes belly. Taking the public for imbeciles is a huge mistake, but one ingrained in the minds of the ruling classes. I fervently believe that this time a lot of people are up for a fall, and at enormous cost, money we can I’ll afford to waste.

But if they are able to continue driving..... and not 'forced off the road'... will it be OK with them then?

Second-hand EVs will be available in a few years. Some with the range reduced, sure, but even today you can't always expect as-new performance from an old vehicle.

The new EVs I was looking at (ID.4 and IONIC 5) start at £35k. Not cheap, but not altogether unaffordable either (with or without finance) when compared to new ICE cars.

And, all new EVs currently come with lots of expensive tech that's not related to the drivetrain, such as infotainment, driver aids, comfi features etc - because that's what the marketing stipulated.

But there will be a market for no-frills EV - the 1.2 Corsa of EVs, if you like - and they will cost even less.

So why the bleak view?

 

[st13phil]

We will have had 20 years from the Leaf to the mandated last sale of ICE’s, allow ten years for them to wash out means your mandatory migration to BEVs is over 30 years.

Absolutely true. But for the last 10 years (since the introduction of the Leaf) there has been precious little - in reality, none at all - coordinated effort to create a viable, national, public charging infrastructure and only now is anything starting to happen, which tends to reinforce my point.

As a country we are spending £150bn+ of public funds on the vanity project that is HS2 which is supported by very few and will benefit even fewer, yet the provision of a viable, national, public charging infrastructure (and the generating capacity it demands) to support the EV's that will be our only option if we wish to purchase personal transport attracts virtually zero thought and a similar level of public investment.

 

[davymead]

But there will be a market for no-frills EV - the 1.2 Corsa of EVs, if you like - and they will cost even less.

So why the bleak view?

True. Just think. All the young guns will be able to swop their Corsas and Fiesta ST’s for a Renault Zoe. If they’re able to stump up the best part of £30,000 + that is.
Form a queue lads … who’s first !

 

[Bellow]

If you indulge me, then let's take it step by step.

The reasoning for EV are:

- They remove air pollution from city centres and densely-populated areas.

Plain wrong. The reason for EVs is the withdrawal of new ICE cars from the market and only electricity being available as an energy source by 2050.

EVs improving air quality in city centres is merely moving the pollution to somewhere else when its electricity is generated from other than renewables and as per the title of this thread that is clearly happening.

 

[Bellow]

The hyperbole:

No issue with fuel cells... but regarding EV charging:

From the Hyundai website:

"In the long range battery version (72.6 kWh), IONIQ 5’s 800V battery system offers the following charging times:

350 kW DC station: Charging time 18 minutes from 10 to 80%. Range added from 5 minutes of charging: 111 km.

50 kW DC station: Charging time 56 min 30 sec from 10 to 80%. Range added from 5 minutes of charging: 28 km."

This does not seem bad at all...?

The reality:

Where I live in London, all of the lampposts were fitted with 5.5kW Siemens chargers by Ubitricity (now owned by Shell). Local residents with EVs plug them in overnight, them move them to another spot in the morning. New EVs have a range of 200+ miles, so the typical runabout will only need charging once every other week. Those with a long out-of-town daily commute will not buy an EV just yet, but will probably start doing so once workplace car parks start fitting chargers as standard.

Slightly more than one tenth of the lesser requirement to gain 28km in 5 minutes so almost one hour of charging for 28 km - a mere 17 miles.
200 miles of charge will take circa 10 hours and you say that will be fortnightly. If, a 5.5kW charger is in continuous use (ie once coming off charge and another immediately connecting to it) then it can service 33 cars. Even if the logistics are possible - is that enough in a major city?
According to your linked piece, Ubitricity have 2700 chargers in London and Oxford. If each serves 33 cars, then 90,000 cars are catered for. Google says there are 2.56 million cars registered in London.

 

[markjay]

True. Just think. All the young guns will be able to swop their Corsas and Fiesta ST’s for a Renault Zoe. If they’re able to stump up the best part of £30,000 + that is.
Form a queue lads … who’s first !

How many lads ever bought a brand new Corsa? Or Fiesta? We used to buy what we could afford, and these were typically old cars. Why do you think that a young lad won't be able to afford a 10 or 15 years old EV in 10 or 15 years time?