Favourite\Best Formula 1 driver and why

[glojo]

Following on from the Montoya thread, I thought it would be very interesting to hear the views of other members of this forum regarding who there favourite formula 1 driver is and why. (preferably in less than 4000000 words )

This is NOT a sideways swipe at Bearface. I hold this person in the highest of regard and enjoy having debates with him.

My all time favourite is Ayrton Senna, he was the ultimate competitor who perhaps was too dedicated to the sport. I will never forget the terrific race at Monaco when he was in an underpowered, second rate Toleman and he made fools of everyone. This was a rain soaked race which was stopped a few laps from the end and although Senna finished second, he was rapidly closing on Prost and within a lap, or two at the most he would easily have gone on to win. Just to highlight his wet driving abilities we need not think back any further than Donnington, when he made every other formula 1 driver look average by lapping them ALL. Again a wet\damp race and again Senna had an uncompetitive car and rather than appear anti anyone I will simply paste a brief few lines on this race and readers might spot a pattern of behaviour by a certain individual :

Senna was in fifth position going into the first corner. He had to avoid Michael Schumacher moving across the track at him. By the end of the first lap, Senna was leading the race. Such skill did Senna have in the wet, he went on to lap every car on the track which gave him the title of 'the Rain Master'

A brilliant driver whose career was cut short by a tragic incident.

Regards,
John

 

[Rose Chap]

Damon Hill.

He wasn't the fastest.
He wasn't the most talented.
He was however an honest, quick, fair, all round bloody good chap who exemplified the highest standards of British decency and grit.

I also had to try and hold back (and ultimately failed) the waterworks when he won the 1996 World Championship and immediately went over to hug his wife. Brilliant.

RC

 

[Swiss Toni]

Senna.

Although I should add that I worked for Jody Scheckter at one time.

So, Senna.

 

[BearFace]

John.....................how could you..???



Schumacher is the best driver of the last decade. I don't believe that anyone currently in F1 has his combination of abilities or his natural speed; he's always been fast regardless of how good, bad or indifferent his car has been. Close behind is Raikonnen, who I believe will be the Next Big Thing in F1.

However my favourite driver of all time and arguably still one of the best of all time is...............Mansell. His uncompromising driving style - both aggressive and fast - made him few friends on the track but he was (and remains) a thoroughly superb talent behind the wheel of a racing car. Just look at how he's shown other world greats the way home in GP Masters, a series in which the cars are all vitually identical.

I work in Italy two or three times each year and the Italians are fiercely patriotic people. Interestingly when the subject of F1 comes up, they don't rave about Schumacher all that much. No, one of their biggest heros is Mansell and he didn't even win a championship in a Ferrari. Personally I think that speaks volumes about the man.......

Hakinnen was/is pretty good and I like the guy too. He's one of the only drivers who Schumacher considered (and said so) a genuine rival.

Senna for me was brilliant like Schumacher, but I could never take to the guy and therefore it would be impossible for me to list him as one of my favourites.

Mansell it is, then

 

[Alfie]

Have to concur on the Senna theme.

Damon hill was alright, not a star really as he won in the days when it was 40% car, 40% fuel and 20% driver. In the right car with the right fuel at the right time He was/is though a decent chap.

Mansell was an entertaining character too.

However, for me, although not really formula 1, has to be Derek Bell. Seeing him win at LeMans time after time was magical. Also seeing him drive a car round a track whilst looking back at the rear seat passengers saying 'You can drive this car by feel and smell alone' has to be class.

 

[glojo]

Interestingly when the subject of F1 comes up, they don't rave about Schumacher all that much. No, one of their biggest heros is Mansell and he didn't even win a championship in a Ferrari. Personally I think that speaks volumes about the man.......

Having had the priviledge of being taken around his private collection of trophies, he has on display a trophy presented to him by the Italian fans. El Tigre or words to that effect. It was mentioned how they compared him to 'you know who' The Italian fans really appreciated Mansell's style.

My brother has met Damon and was impressed by the nature\attitude of this very nice person. It speaks volumes that he has been elected President of the British Racing Drivers Club.

I failed to mention Jackie Stewart although he still would not be in my top list.

John

 

[Alfie]

Having had the priviledge of being taken around his private collection of trophies, he has on display a trophy presented to him by the Italian fans. El Tigre or words to that effect. It was mentioned how they compared him to 'you know who' The Italian fans really appreciated Mansell's style.

My brother has met Damon and was impressed by the nature\attitude of this very nice person. It speaks volumes that he has been elected President of the British Racing Drivers Club.

I failed to mention Jackie Stewart although he still would not be in my top list.

John

If we widened this thread to those at the top or have been at the top of their motoring career then two names stick out above others. Doohan and Rossi!

 

[saorbust]

Oooo thats a tough one John.

I'd have to say of the current drivers its Schumacher. In an average car he still can produce a distinctly brilliant drive. Not many drivers can do that, although the Finn can on his day.

As much as I love Damon Hill - his stance, manner and so forth, I wouldn't place him top - although I do believe its hard to find a gentlemen of his standing in the sport today. No disrespect to Sir Jackie either.

Senna - brilliant - sheer genius. Such a pity he left us when he did - absolutely amazing driver, and an almost unearthly ability to drive. I can well imagine him being in the zone...

My fav has to be Mansell. Love the way he drove, love his manner, and who can forget the tash ! Superb stuff. Fav moment is his turning up of the boost on his turbo charged williams and just blowing (!) everyone away in the British GP one year - jaw dropping.

Now I wonder if we could have the same question on team managers....

 

[Ian B Walker]

If I were to choose a driver who had everything, I would suggest Stirling Moss. Who else could race in South America with bald tyres ( Tread worn away) No seat belt, none of todays refinements, and win. Then there was Fangio another fantastic driver. Some of the drivers from those era's are well worth considering.

 

[glojo]

If we widened this thread to those at the top or have been at the top of their motoring career then two names stick out above others. Doohan and Rossi!

Hi Alfie,
Might be worth suggesting, I certainly would not moan about going off topic.

Don't forget Joey Dunlop. an unbelieveable specialist talent.

I still cannot see where this schumacher in an average car bit is coming from???? The Benetton was a terrific car that was certainly NOT average. The Ferrari was certainly 'average' last year, and where was Captain Marvel? At the beginning of this season the Ferrari was 'average' but during his time at Benetton the car was highly competitive.

I respect anyone's decision to nominate any driver, but my database needs the information?

In my nomination I provided links for under powered references and am merely wondering where the links are for schumacher. He started his career in an 'average' Jordan, but the race winning Benetton team very quickly signed him up and the rest is history. My reference for this statement is: Race winning

I have NO problem with anyone nominating this driver, it is highly possible that his record will possibly NOT be beaten in my lifetime?? On those figures alone he must be worthy of nomination. I am simply asking where is the justification for him being a winner in an 'average' formula 1 car.

In the wet he was not in the same league as Senna who quite literally lapped schumacher in a very average car, that is the type of information I seek.

Please, please understand I am not disagreeing with the nomination, it is perfectly in order, I merely need to get an answer.

What I did find sad was that during my quest to see schumachers Formula 1 history, on one of his fan club sites they actually held a poll to see who the best ever Formula 1 driver was. Because they were getting thousands of nominations from Brazil for Senna they closed the poll crying foul!! How sad and I suppose how typical.

John the inquisitive

Edit:
Just read Ian's post and I personally believe Stirling Moss was at his best in the Mille Miglia

Mille Miglia

 

[BearFace]

I still cannot see where this schumacher in an average car bit is coming from???? The Benetton was a terrific car that was certainly NOT average

Firstly, I nominated Mansell and not Schumacher. Secondly the information that Schuey has been competitive (often devastatingly so...) in average - or worse - cars...................... is widely known and easily available

The Ford-powered Benetton was distinctly mediocre and he won a championship with it. He also won one GP after being stuck in fourth gear for the latter third of the race (so therefore the car was well below average...). Only when the Renault engines came along did the car become "terrific" and of course he then dominated.

When he went to Ferrari in '96 it certainly wasn't a competitive car; far from it. Yet he still won 3 races, managed 8 podiums and came 3rd in the championship against Williams cars which were in an entirely different league. The Spanish GP of that year was wet and his performance (and win) in that race is widely considered (by people better qualified than you or I to comment ) to be the finest wet drive of all time. The fact that an experienced Senna had beaten a distinctly inexperienced Schumacher in a past wet-weather battle is hardly representative of Schumacher's evolution as one of (if not THE) best wet-weather drivers of all time...

In '97 the car was better, but nowhere close to the Williams. Yet he scored 5 wins, 8 podiums and 2nd in the championship. Or he would've had he not been disqualified for being a pr*ck

In '98 the McLarens were significantly quicker and yet Schuey managed 6 wins and 11 podiums, taking 2nd place overall. He stared in Suzuka from the back of the grid and managed to climb to 3rd before having a blowout. Imagine what he'd have done had he been driving a McLaren...

'99 came and still the McLarens dominated in terms of power and pace, and still Schuey came good with 3 poles and 2 wins (and 6 podiums!) despite missing 7 races during the season due to injury. And he still finished 5th overall!

In 2000, despite the continued dominance of the McLarens and consistent pole positions for Hakkinen inthe first third of the season, Schuey took control and won the first three races in what was clearly a slower, less competitive car. In fact he won 9 out of 17 races and took the championship - the first for Ferrari in something like twenty odd years.

Since then his car has been competitive (apart from in 2005) but rarely out on it's own. In 2003 the competition was stiff from McLaren and other teams, but he still won. Even last year when the tyre war was being easily won by Michelin and his car was essentially a pig, Schumacher managed to compete on level terms with much, much better cars. He could never win the championship in a car which was a second or two per lap slower than McLaren or Renault, but he consistently kept pace in races and despite the fact that many midfield teams were running better cars, he managed a pole (Hungary), 2 fastest laps (San Marino and Monaco), 3 second places (San Marino, Canada and Hungary) and a 3rd in France.

This year the Ferrari started the season as an average car, but Schumacher had achieved wins, poles and fastest laps before the car started to improve and become competitive. Now he's on a level playing field with Alonso, he's back to winning races, which is what makes him such a fabulous driver.

No matter how cynical you might be and no matter how little you respect the guy personally (and I'm certainly not his biggest fan...), you are on a ride into nowhere pursuing the idea that Schumacher is merely an "above-average" driver whose success has been shaped by a combination of Ross Brawn's genius and out and out cheating. Schumacher has proven himself to be an enormous talent in his own right and had he not been so, Brawn's incredible strategies would've gone to waste.

The likes of Irvine, Barrichello and Massa have occasionally been "gazumped" by the team and Schumacher, but not one of them has ever shown the team that they could consistently outperform him, so they've been forced to play second fiddle and they've been proved themselves great sports for doing so. If any one of them had shown the talent and skill that Schumacher has displayed since he started out in F1, the other teams would've been falling over themselves to poach them and provide them with a chance to beat Schuey on a level field. Even now, we're not being told that Renault and McLaren are fighting to sign Massa, and that's because he isn't the Schumacher-threatening force that you've suggested he is...

Like I said, Schumacher isn't my favourite driver by some margin, but I cannot deny that he's probably the best there's ever been and if you look at his record carefully and objectively, you'll see why.

That's all I'm willing to say 'bout that. I'm Schumacher'd out now

 

[Ted]

Definitely Stirling Moss. He was Wonderful through his career, and still is a great driver and personality.
Second is Fangio - a truly magnificent 'seat of the pants' driver.

And for bikes, I remember a young Finnish rider, Jaarno Saarinen (sp?) who was the most talented natural rider I ever saw - sadly killed while he was still young.
Also Mike HHailwood, another superb, natural rider. I remember seeing him race in the mid seventies, in the post TT at Mallory on what was effectively a modified street Ducati. He showed the riders the way home without all of the fancy leg out, off the bike mularkey - he just won by sheer talent,
Fantastic.

 

[glojo]

That's all I'm willing to say 'bout that. I'm Schumacher'd out now

Wow!!
Unfortunately your excellent piece is merely ...... 'Tosh' We are clearly never going to agree so let's just accept that and enjoy the banter over my 'insulting' attitude to-wards an extremely rich and talented driver

schumacher the world's best wet weather driver

You are really after the sympathy vote by saying schumacher was 'inexperienced' when Senna LAPPED the whole field including your so called wet weather expert??? Are you suggesting that schumacher was dragged off the streets and put into a formula 1 car without any wet weather experience??? He in fact had an excellent background and was a highly experienced open seat driver. He entered Formula 1 in 1991, Donnington was 1993??? I'm afraid after that statement the rest of your very nice post is shot!!!

If we want the sympathy vote then the Toleman drive by Senna at Monaco was in his first year in Formula 1 with a genuine under performing car. Unfortunately with time our memories fade, I have no idea if you watched this race, but I was lucky enough to see it. Monaco has never had the reputation of being an 'overtaking track' For Senna to start at the back of the grid with his dog of a car (the Toleman was the equivalent of a Minardi) and overtake everyone except the leader was indeed a stunning performance. If the race had not been stopped Senna would have won easily, that was Senna's FIRST season not THIRD as in schumacher 91, 92, 93. Still never let the truth get in the way of a definite schumacher fan.

The Benetton was certainly NOT an under performing car. Jordan was not a happy man when his talented driver was 'stolen' by Benetton. He allegedly had a water tight contract with Jordan and there is NO WAY ANY up and coming driver would move to an under performing team if they had the opportunity to stay with a better car. I am certainly NOT failing to recognise the excellent achievements by this person but I find it strange how folks fail to see what is in front of them.

Barrichello was an up and coming talent with the choice of any team, but he sold his soul to Ferrari and signed a contract prohibiting him from quite literally competing against his team leader and also to offer complete and full assistance to his team leader. I was stunned when he joined Ferrari having already seen what it had done to one 'above average' driver who could clearly, easily have won Ferrari the World Championship and I still find it strange how Ferrari DELIBERATELY sacrificed the championship simply because the number two driver would have won it. Why do you continually ignore this? I remember the race when schumacher had gearbox problems and he did indeed do very well to stay in front, but in fairness he did have a comfortable lead which was slowly eradicated, plus of course it was a track where you could at least drive the car in the higher gears. All credit to him for that day.

The only race I recall where Ferrari shone last year was that highly competitive race at Indianapolis, and am I right in thinking that no Formula 1 team tests at this circuit, but Firestone who are part of Brigdestone have a large factory just down the road and are regular testers at Indianapolis???

Barrichello really highlighted just how good the Ferrari is when he moved back into the Honda. After a full winter of testing and getting used to the new car, he was simply uncompetitive. He struggled to drive an 'ordinary' car and had difficulty in simply stopping the vehicle. Clearly the Honda is not the worlds best vehicle, but at least Barrichello is now competing against his team mate. (I rate Barrichello as being a better driver than Button)

Now the real nitty gritty.
Ferrari have a policy of very strict one driver sponsorship. I say this in a vague sort of way, but mean they put ALL their resources behind one driver and concentrate on getting that driver to win... (Full stop) That is their policy and all respect to them (apart from the baffling Irvine saga??)

To explain myself better, most other Formula 1 teams allow their drivers to race competitively against each other until near the end of a season, where one driver might have a clear chance of being World champion. Ferrari on the other hand will not entertain that, hence the huge problems in the Mansell, Prost era.

This philosophy has stood Ferrari in good stead over the era of McLaren, Williams superiority, both these teams had drivers stealing points from each other whilst Ferrari sat back and laughed. I am NOT criticising Ferrari for this attitude, you know what is on the packet, so don't moan about the content.

I am enjoying this banter and please accept my remarks are being non inflammatory, but poor, poor inexperienced did-dums schumacher had me reaching for the bucket

Do you think schumacher will regain the World Championship this year, or will Renault raise their game?

Incidentally I have NO problem with anyone person dominating a formula providing it is done on merit Rossi thanks Colin Edwards for his contribution and there is no way the bikes are equal, but Rossi has an inferior bike when compared to the Honda.

John the inexperienced

John

 

[scumbag]

Mansell

Mansell!

If you wish to get in to statistics, how was the oldest driver to win the world championship? what was the age this man won his first? If Senna had still been with us, how many would he have won? Did Prost do the right thing in going to Ferrari? Did alesi drop the ball and instead of signing for Williams in 1991 he went to ferrari?

Mansell

If you look at 1993. the McLaren Ford was the most advanced F1 car to date but had a customer ford engine 2 steps beneath that of the benneton ford. Senna had no choice but to go with total wet settings as his car would not have won had he choose the compromise setting that both Williams had. and Damon came second beating his 3times world champion teamate in only his 3rd F1 race. I was there, fablious race and was the first time the british crowd really let it out for Senna, just so Prost had to feel the shame of nicking our nige's seat! That year we really took to senna. At the British GP Prost won his 50th GP, and nobody clapped! He even mentioned it at the press conference afterwards.

Mansell.

Anyhow, Schumi is very good and was the day he qualified the jordon in 7th. he is not the best of them all. Alonso and raikonen are at least as good. But all credit to the man, he never ever gives up and is thorouhly ruthless in his pursuit and that makes him a winner. Senna was far better all round and was as ruthless.

Mansell.

I still think that Mansell is the best because he was always exciting and really made an effort to win. he even qualified 12 in hungary and still won as he sacrificed qualifyig to get his car right for the race. he went 3 abreast to pass senna and had his wheels on the grass while doing so.

He is my hero.

Stirling is a legend!

Senna was the best.

And I know best so all your comments are incorrect and wrong.

OFF Topic.
Barry Sheene.

Did i mention Mansell?

 

[saorbust]

/me hands John a chill pill.

Dude thats one hell of a post. My my we have unearthed some interesting points !!! Very well made too by all.

One point from your post. I don't believe that Ferrari would EVER deliberately sacrifice winning the world championship - either drivers or team. They won the team remember ? Personally I think that Ferrari place the team trophy above anything else - yes it helps to win the drivers, but they are very much a TEAM - and this is perhaps where Schu's talents really come to the front. Can you really argue that the Finn has the same ability with McLaren ?

Arguably Alonso is nearly there with Renault, but I believe its more Flav. Jenson is getting there with Honda, but hang on if we look that might be Rubens as well (who came from Ferrari - go figure).

Fundamentally the drivers debate can go on - but I don't believe anyone can build a team round them like Schumacher - this is why they are so motivated even the the face of some serious competition - particularly with Renault at the moment. Okay so its not just Schu - its the likes of Brawn and so forth (in fact the whole team) - but its clear how well they work together. Massa is likewise of the same breed and he will do well.

(walks away having thrown another can of worms into the battlefield)

Incidently - isn't all this why F1 is great ?!

 

[MikeL]

Jackie Stewart gets my vote, not always in the best car yet managed 27 wins from only 99 starts - a ratio that stacks up today. Awesome around Monaco.

Plus happy to share (a word not associated with modern F1) information with his team mates.

Mike

 

[scumbag]

Jackie Stewart gets my vote, not always in the best car yet managed 27 wins from only 99 starts - a ratio that stacks up today. Awesome around Monaco.

Plus happy to share (a word not associated with modern F1) information with his team mates.

Mike

I really want to be nice about Sir Jackie, but I did have the privilge of having a chat with him a few year back. And I wasnt quite as impressed with him, although he is a decent bloke.in fairness, he has one exaclty 99GPs more than me.
and done loads for F1 SAFETY

 

[R2D2]

Giles Villenueve,
Senna,
Mansell
Schumacher

Giles used to entertain in a car that usually broke down!

 

[andy_k]

Mansell, he was one of the last true racing drivers. To him winning mattered - nothing else would ever be enough. Settle for second place? Not if there was a 1 in a million chance of catching the guy in front. Great car control, incredibly brave overtaking etc etc and competing against true greats when the sport was a lot more dangerous and exciting than it is now - F1 needs people like him

I think that the late Jim Clark deserves a mention as well .....To quote Colin Chapman "Many drivers won a grand prix because they were driving a Lotus, but Lotus won many grands prix because Jim Clark was driving.”

He always made it look so easy

Andy

 

[BearFace]

Unfortunately your excellent piece is merely ...... 'Tosh'

Hate to poop on your party here John, but not only is it NOT "tosh", it's totally accurate information, all of which can be referenced via the 'Net or other suitable sources. Anything I've posted which isn't absolute fact is of course my subjective opinion (or the quoted opinion of people who know far more than you or I about the subject...), but in fairness most of what you've posted is based on your own personal opinions and cynicism, rather than fact...

You questioned Schumacher's ability to win in average (or worse) cars and I gave you a list of occasions when he did precisely that. I also provided a list of events in which despite having an absolute pig of a car, he still ran with faster cars, posted fastest laps, qualified on pole and finished on the podium. The evidence is prolific and widely available, but if you choose to disregard it, there's little I can do

Schumacher is widely known and often referred to by pundits, journalists and motorsport insiders (even by those who don't like him, such as Brundle, who also knew Senna very well...) as one of the greatest wet weather drivers of all time. Having seen him in such conditions (many times) completely overcoming his rivals, it's a view I share completely. Sure, Senna was a great driver too, but (a) I'm not comparing Senna to Schuey........(b) When you saw Senna beating Schuey in the wet it WAS at a time when Senna had been in F1 for many years and Schuey was a relative newcomer. Skill and experience are developed over time and while Senna WAS sublime on that occasion, Schuey's performances have been so on others.......and (c) Senna had a measureably superior car to Schumacher at that time, so there were factors other than pure skill to consider, weren't there...?

I'm more than happy to have you disagree with me on any subject whatsoever, however when I'm simply quoting established facts and you refer to them as "tosh", I have to wonder whether this is some kind of surreal dream in which fact becomes fiction and nothing can ever be stated objectively.

I repeat, my favourite driver of all time is Mansell. However Schumacher is undisputedly the best driver of all time and no, I don't accept that this is simply because Ross Brawn is a great strategist...

Now I really think we should change the record here. We're never going to agree on this particular subject and while it's fun and well-intentioned bantering, I'm beginning have Schumacher hallucinations, in which he's telling me to run you off the track. Let's talk about politics or religion instead....