Fuel Economics

[Red C220]

In the last two years I've owned a "59" C180K Sport Estate Auto - averaged 30mpg, best I ever got was driving from Surrey to Glasgow - 44mpg.

<-------Latest car is this one

Avergage mpg is below

Best I've managed is Surrey to Norwich and back averaging 57mpg.

It's not so much the Auto that makes the difference, it's petrol vs Diesel.

Manual is inherently more economical, but when you take into consdieration how much value a manual box wipes off a used Mercedes then the fuel consideration is irrelevant.

 

[flango]

In terms of efficiency I wouldn't rate a CVT.

But having lived with a CVT (or rather SWMBO lived with it - I had occasional rights) I disagree as regards to 'quicker'. IMO to takes a good driver in a manual to beat a mediocre but committed driver in a CVT on a tight and challenging road.

And to a lesser extent the same is true of autos in traffic conditions.

I agree a lot of it is down to the driver but I personally rate the CVT boxes lower than the MB 7g and thats saying something, no way would anyone in a cvt beat me in manual.

I had to do a mad rush yesterday morning that took me down b roads as the m/way was closed I was in a Focus ST, and doing some pretty high speeds if I had been in any type of auto I could not of done the run anywhere near as fast as I simply would not have had the control when cornering, dropping to 3rd and fast cornering is simply not possible in an auto.

In a manual Vs Auto car of the same spec in cross country running the manual will always be a lot quicker

 

[timskemp]

Overall running costs probably work out the same, although a manual is potentially cheaper unless you drive with economy in mind it tends to work out about the same.

The big reason for manual BMWs being so economical is stop-start, which didn't come in on the autos until recently (in fact I think MB beat them to it).

As for BMW autos being better than MB, I reckon you see "MB auto box problem" so often is because so many of them are autos, unlike BMW whose best selling cars are the 4 cylinder manuals (118d, 320d, 520d).

Personally I'd not buy a diesel car with a manual gearbox, if you want tales of woe just google "dual mass flywheel"

 

[flango]

Overall running costs probably work out the same, although a manual is potentially cheaper unless you drive with economy in mind it tends to work out about the same.

The big reason for manual BMWs being so economical is stop-start, which didn't come in on the autos until recently (in fact I think MB beat them to it).

As for BMW autos being better than MB, I reckon you see "MB auto box problem" so often is because so many of them are autos, unlike BMW whose best selling cars are the 4 cylinder manuals (118d, 320d, 520d).

Personally I'd not buy a diesel car with a manual gearbox, if you want tales of woe just google "dual mass flywheel"

The stop start systems IMHO are total b*llocks any way if you drive how you are taught in advanced driving your driving style overrides the stop start system so it is totally pointless. All the BMW stop start systems I have driven are so time consuming it becomes a complete pain, I would agree with you the MB start stop system is very good on the auto's something BMW have not managed to beat yet.

People don't know how to handle DMF most just fit new ones but in reality most can be skimmed curing the problem so it's £40 vs hundreds for replacement. Even if you have to replace you can just convert to a solid version still saving loads.

But the big advantage of BMW they will build you any car on the range ( with the exception of the 7 series) with a manual gearbox, now if only MB offered the same

 

[Red C220]

I agree a lot of it is down to the driver but I personally rate the CVT boxes lower than the MB 7g and thats saying something, no way would anyone in a cvt beat me in manual.

I had to do a mad rush yesterday morning that took me down b roads as the m/way was closed I was in a Focus ST, and doing some pretty high speeds if I had been in any type of auto I could not of done the run anywhere near as fast as I simply would not have had the control when cornering, dropping to 3rd and fast cornering is simply not possible in an auto.

In a manual Vs Auto car of the same spec in cross country running the manual will always be a lot quicker

My brother in law would never drive an auto based on a similar thought process to your own. Control of car etc.

Personally I don't emulate the RAC rally each time I drive on public roads and find I get there just fine and comfortably in an auto.

I spend far too much time sat in traffic jams to even consider a manual

 

[Red C220]

The stop start systems IMHO are total b*llocks any way if you drive how you are taught in advanced driving your driving style overrides the stop start system so it is totally pointless. All the BMW stop start systems I have driven are so time consuming it becomes a complete pain, I would agree with you the MB start stop system is very good on the auto's something BMW have not managed to beat yet.

But the big advantage of BMW they will build you any car on the range ( with the exception of the 7 series) with a manual gearbox, now ifonly MB offered the same

My c class is Start/Stop auto.

I was a little unsure when I first got it, but after a week it felt quite normal.

I'm still astonished by how quickly it starts and pulls off, the delay is negligible.

Manual Mercs are like Manual Jags, every so often one person wants one and it will be made for them.

BMW's attract a different driver - the M3 vs C63 is perfect example.

The M3 is a track car and is outstanding.

The C63 is a dragster.

On a track the M3 is king, in every other aspect of living with the car the C63 is a the better car.

 

[flango]

My c class is Start/Stop auto.

I was a little unsure when I first got it, but after a week it felt quite normal.

I'm still astonished by how quickly it starts and pulls off, the delay is negligible.

Manual Mercs are like Manual Jags, every so often one person wants one and it will be made for them.

BMW's attract a different driver - the M3 vs C63 is perfect example.

The M3 is a track car and is outstanding.

The C63 is a dragster.

On a track the M3 is king, in every other aspect of living with the car the C63 is a the better car.

It's a tough one this M3 Vs C63 and M5 Vs E63 at the end of the day it boils down to what you want out of the car, if you want something liveable and an everyday driver I agree the MB is the more liveable of the two. If you want a screamer and outright speed and handling then the Beemer is better. I had my hands on an E63 on Tuesday and it is no BMW M5. It's good but a totally different drive to the M5 as a drivers car the M5 wins hands down, for class and poise done very rapidly then its the E63 all IMHO of course

 

[Adam230K]

330i Manual petrol average mpg 37.5

No wai!

 

[Dryce]

I agree a lot of it is down to the driver but I personally rate the CVT boxes lower than the MB 7g and thats saying something, no way would anyone in a cvt beat me in manual.

In a manual Vs Auto car of the same spec in cross country running the manual will always be a lot quicker

CVTs tend to end up in uninterestringly banal places between a small engine and FWD in an uninspiring package - or in a Prius. The A-Class CVT isn't very inspiring.

SWMBO used to have a MGF with a CVT.

The 30-50 and 50-70 times were shown as '-' alongside the manual 1.8i and VVC versions in the brochures.

Now you might assume, with the CVT sapping power and a 30kg+ weight disadvantage, that the reason for the '-' would be to spare the blushes of the CVT version.

But my assumption is that the '-' was to spare the blushes of the manuals.

Given a suitably challenging bit of road (it would just get eaten on straights) it would give other cars with substantially better power to weight/ratios an interesting challenge.

 

[timskemp]

But the big advantage of BMW they will build you any car on the range ( with the exception of the 7 series) with a manual gearbox, now if only MB offered the same

I accept it would be nice to have the choice, but I actually /like/ the 7 speed MB box (I know you don't, along with some curly haired scottish guy) and wouldn't trade that for a manual.

To be honest I think there are few cars I'd want now with a manual box, mainly because to me the power delivery of turbo cars is better handled with an autobox, especially diesels (my friends supra had 700bhp and an autobox and was hilarious). Unless the manual adds to the enjoyment of the car (and paddleshifts can do a lot of that) then I think my choice would be auto for most things. Maybe I'm getting old...

Notable expections would include the MX5, RX8 or anything else that just begs to be revved out in every gear!

 

[timskemp]

I'm not convinced of that, I'd agree in a manual vs auto MX5 or Carrera S argument, or especially in a Mondeo.

Given something with a turbo (335d, 911 turbo) and I reckon it'll be a different story and much harder to call. With a double clutch box it's going to be even closer.

Losing manual gearboxes hasn't hurt ferrari's sales!

 

[Merco]

I think it does come down to preference and driving style with regard to choice of manual vs automatic but I honestly don't think one can argue with the fuel economy aspect of it. And the choice of MB manual admittedly might affect resale value but we're not talking in the thousands here are we? And a decent sales pitch could explain the virtue of car control, fuel economy and service costs. If you think of the final aspect there - purchasing an MB service plan saves you almost nothing if you drive a manual car because the big year 2/3 service holds the costs in automatic transmission, so there is 'less to go wrong' with the manual (gearbox failure sure, but that's also true for automatics). And I can't escape that feeling of extra control I enjoy and engaging with the drive. This surely negates any negligible difference in resale value a few years down the line.

 

[Red C220]

Maybe I'm getting old...

I don't think so, I think Auto boxes are just getting better and better.

I remember clearly stating in my early 20's I'd never drive an auto - not in control of the car blah blah...

I've driven autos since I was 23 (last 20 years).

Just no upside for a manual unless you have very specific requirements, maybe you hillclimb or track the car. In every other respect there's no need for a manual.

 

[st4]

I accept it would be nice to have the choice, but I actually /like/ the 7 speed MB box (I know you don't, along with some curly haired scottish guy) and wouldn't trade that for a manual.

I'm not against auto boxes, just against 7g. I've driven the 55AMG and they come with 5g and driving that box after my car, makes me see all the problems witgh 7g. At the other end of the scale going from my car to a 212 220cdi 5g felt like a forward step transmission wise, then into the CLS350cdi with 7g felt like a backwards step. I really rate the 642 engine, but I loathe the transmission.

They just don't change gear right, too slow, too jerky, too hesitant. I like the gear restrictor thing, where you can be in S or C mode and pull the paddle and that locks into 3rd. That makes A and B roads a blast and gives real engine braking, but you can do that in a 5g and the ratio's are better spread. 3rd to 4th happens at 69mph, you might imagine why that may be a problem?

Have you tried a BMW or Audi Auto recently, with the ZF 6speed box, it can lurch a little like the 7g but it changes gear so quickly and smoothly and its reliable if you ignore the manufacturer and change the ATF on it. MB need to do some work on 7g.

 

[st4]

The stop start systems IMHO are total b*llocks any way if you drive how you are taught in advanced driving your driving style overrides the stop start system so it is totally pointless. All the BMW stop start systems I have driven are so time consuming it becomes a complete pain, I would agree with you the MB start stop system is very good on the auto's something BMW have not managed to beat yet.

You're meant to keep the car moving anyway and avoid stopping. Slow to go etc...however I suspect stop start cannot be good for turbo chargers, you are meant to stop and let the turbo cool as the engine idles, not just turn off.

I also like to be able to move off quickly, you might be in a position where you need to move off smartly or accelerate away (something fast may be approaching from behind and get rear ended), stop start would delay this. Never been in that situation, but there is always a chance. I'd rather be injured due to my own ineptitude, not the cars.

 

[Red C220]

Have you driven the latest 7g?

The box in my car is the smoothest auto transmission I've ever driven, the changes are almost seamless.

It is a massive improvement over my previous two cars a 2010 ML300 (shocking gear change) and a 2009 C180K Sport Estate.

 

[st4]

Have you driven the latest 7g?

The box in my car is the smoothest auto transmission I've ever driven, some of the changes are seamless.

It is a massive improvement over my previous two cars a 2010 ML300 (shocking gear change) and a 2009 C180K Sport Estate.

If its 7g plus I haven't. I hear MB went on a massive turd polishing exercise with that one. If its a normal 7g, driven a few and all have had a shifting problem of some variety or another.

 

[Dryce]

If its 7g plus I haven't. I hear MB went on a massive turd polishing exercise with that one. If its a normal 7g, driven a few and all have had a shifting problem of some variety or another.

The new 7g cars are very smooth.

(Whether they stay that way as they age might be a different matter.)

 

[st4]

The new 7g cars are very smooth.

(Whether they stay that way as they age might be a different matter.)

I beg to differ. I drove a 2k mile old C320cdi on an 09 reg plate in late 2009 that had a delightful tendancy to jolt on a down change from 2 to 1. They say software can fix it.

I was loaned an even more delightful 59 erg CLS that did the most wonderful lurch from 1st to 2nd and occassionally from 2 into 1, it would delight you with trying to get you to head but the windscreen.

 

[Dryce]

And I can't escape that feeling of extra control I enjoy and engaging with the drive. This surely negates any negligible difference in resale value a few years down the line.

Conversely ...

I find the fact that you end up moving a hand from one control to another - and disengaging the drive while making a change offensive.

If autos were the norm and you tried to introduce a manual to the market you'd be treated as mad. And quite rightly. Manuals are accepted because that's what most were brought up with.