Fuel Prices

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Ashley

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Most of us drive big cars (soon Ian:bannana:), how is the price of petrol/diesel hitting you. For the first time ever I was asked by a supplier to pay for delivery today (I canceled the order) because of fuel prices. Are we going to see fuel blockades again? did you support the last one? (with my farming background I did). For the economists among of to we need the tax or can HMG get by with a cut.

If someone knows the rates today PM me and I will update it.

Cost per litre of crude oil extraction: 8p
Cost per litre of refining: 2p
Cost per litre to transport to UK: 2p
Cost per litre to transport to pumps: 5p
UK TAX: 60-65p!
Gut wrenching total: More than 85p per Litre - The highest in Europe and possibly the world!!!

Lets have a story.

PUMPED AND DUMPED ON?

There must have been a few residual socialists in the Labour Party who wished their government could have taken a leaf out of the Cuban Book of Decisive Government when the so called ''petrol crisis'' cut a wound in New Labour''s public image.

In the years immediately following the triumph of the Cuban revolution in 1959, transnational oil corporations like Esso and Texaco attempted to bring Cuba's fledgling revolutionary government to its knees by refusing to refine oil in Cuban refineries. The Cuban government tried to negotiate but, when the oil giants refused to temper the demands of their ultra-capitalism, the Cubans simply kicked them off the island; lock, stock and corporate barrel. Putting the refineries under state control, Cuba then stridently asserted that multinationals would never again hold the country to ransom.

Contrary to popular portrayal, the 2000 paralysis of oil deliveries in the UK did not arise from a spontaneous expression of public dissent. The oil corps may have pretended not to send out drivers because of picket line intimidation, but it is now widely acknowledged that they didn't want to. At some refineries the thin smattering of picketers who were supposedly holding the country to ransom were receiving refreshments courtesy of the oil companies themselves.

Seemingly forgotten in the mayhem was the fact that on August 1 - just over a month previously - a 'dump the pump' protest, co-ordinated by the Association of British Drivers and backed by both the Sun and the Daily Mail, had fingered the oil industry itself as the culprit for high petrol prices. How quickly was this forgotten? How adroitly did the corporations manoeuvre themselves out of the dock and into the seat of innocence. Under the guise of spontaneous public insurrection, the oil companies helped harness popular animosity over high petrol taxes and redirect it against the government. It was a coup of corporate cleverness. But why now?

The oil industry didn't complain back in 1993 when the Conservative government increased petrol duty paid by British motorists by 10% and set up the 'fuel duty regulator' which increased petrol duty by 3% above inflation each year thereafter. At the same time, Thatcher's government sliced petroleum revenue tax (PRT) from 75% to 50% for oil fields currently in service, and abolished it altogether for fields developed after the 1993 budget. PRT is the UK's version of an oil extraction tax which every oil producing country in the world levies to compensate for the removal of their mineral resource. The removal of this tax by the Conservative government back in 1993 was a staggering gift to those oil corporations mining British oil. In answer to a parliamentary question, the Financial Secretary to the Treasury at the time, Stephen Dorrell, said the move was "a direct response to an industry request" and would "double the investors marginal share of the profit." BP's share price rose by 6.4% immediately.

After Eire, the UK's oil fields are now the cheapest in the world for oil companies to drain. It is a situation the oil leviathans wish to maintain.

Finance analysts, UBS Warburg, predict that the world's top ten oil companies are set to weigh in a cool $75 billion dollar profit by the end of this year. Shell's third quarter profits announced on November 2 were up a staggering 80 per cent on last years figure reaching a record $3.254 billion. BP are expected to report a 77 per cent increase on their figures. These mammoth profit swells are all due to the high price of crude oil. However, none of this gargantuan profit margin, will be passed onto drivers at the pump. Instead Esso, Total and Jet have audacity to keep raiseing petrol prices.

In 1997, new Labour chancellor Gordon Brown, muted the idea of reintroducing petroleum revenue tax; a plan which the oil industry were voraciously keen to scotch. Brown abandoned the plan after the oil giants argued that the extremely low price of oil at the time ($8) already meant that profits were being hit. However, even this dubious argument collapsed when the price of crude oil went skyward and now stands at over $30 a barrel. Keen to warn the government away from the notion of reintroducing petroleum revenue tax, the oil corporations flexed their political muscle.

The second motivation for their attack on New Labour is the imminent imposition of a climate change levy. This proposed levy was planned as a way of making the oil corporations contribute a sum of money specifically for environmental projects which might help counter the global warming caused by petrochemical omissions. The actual amount has yet to be set and the oil industry is evidently warning the government to keep it low.

After the 2000 petrol crisis the New Labour government belatedly realised that oil companies had been complicit in the fuel shortage. And what's more there was little that could be done about the way they had executed their involvement. Strict anti-union legislation brought in by Thatcher means that police have a legal right to wade in if a picket line blocks company gates. However, if the company themselves are secretly in support of the picket and refuse to send vehicles out the gate then the police are powerless.

So it was to the oil companies that the New Labour government went first to secure a pledge that guaranteed a certain degree of fuel distribution in the event of more picketing. What the government offered the oil companies behind closed doors we may never know, but it was more than likely to be some respite from the petroleum revenue tax and/or climate change levy.

The other vested business interests behind the petrol crisis were the road haulage industry and farmers. The large land-owner dominated Country Landowner's Association (CLA), the National Farmer's Union (NFU) and the Road Hauliers' Association (RHA) were among a posse of lobbying organisations who saw opportunities to further their profit-making causes.

Having exclusive access to' red diesel' with a minimal levy of 3p a litre tax, British farmers are only really affected by fuel tax indirectly via produce distribution haulage costs. The involvement of farmers in the dispute was more a reflection of a general disaffection amongst Britain's ailing conventional agricultural industry than it was about fuel prices.

This general disaffection has already been harnessed to such significant affect by the right wing pro-hunting lobby group, the Countryside Alliance, which has gone to often farcical lengths - including their so called peoples march through London in 1998 - to spread their message that New Labour are urbanites with no sense of countryside issues.

Organisations like the Road Hauliers' Association (RHA) and Freight Transport Association (FTA) on the other hand are obviously directly affected by fuel taxes and have campaigned on the issue for a number of years. As director general of the RHA from 1997 to 1999, Tory MP and failed candidate for London mayor, Steven Norris, regularly used his position to have a go at Labour. However, there was relatively little to pin a party political issue on given that it was a Conservative government that had facilitated steep rises in petrol prices by introducing the petrol tax escalator. In fact it was Gordon Brown who got rid of the escalator in 1999 slowing rises on petrol excise immediately and earning a Country Landowner Association (CLA) press release headline which sighed: "Fuel Tax Declaration a welcome respite". Within a year however, the CLA were keen to be one of the right wing vested business interests jumping on the diesel bandwagon and thrusting its finger at the New Labour government.
 
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How much is a litre in the UK now? I pay 1euro44 for a litre of V-power 100 octane (like better optimax) at Shell in Stuttgart, which is near as damnit £1.
 
It will be not too far different - Unleaded tends to be from around 96p/litre up to around £1/litre in the Glasgow area - other fuels are slightly more expensive and prices are higher in remote areas.
 
It's one of those products that can be taxed as much the government of the day want.

It's cruical to our lives, we're all (virtually) hooked on our cars and they have the excuse that there are too many cars on our roads and that it's dirty (both true, of course). There's no way of winning.

But, even at today's prices we can all (generally) still afford to pay it and we'll all continue to do so. And the government know this. Would traffic in the UK suddenly halve if petrol prices rose to £2 per litre tomorrow? Na.....

Blame the Toris and Ken Clarke's infamous fuel accelerator tax in the late 80s for its silly price today...........

Or just pay it. If tax were to be reduced on fuel it would merely hit something else we all need/think we need. Make fags £50 per packet, I say!
 
So I got a taxi at Pittsburgh Airport this afternoon, and the driver started moaning about the high cost of fuel - at $2.75 per gallon. When I told him how much it is over in the uk, he was amazed.

-simon
 
Now, wasn't the former Prime Minister's husband something of a bigwig in the erm, now what what business was it again, oh yes I remember now it was the OIL INDUSTRY!

However, petrol is still comparitively cheap, even in the UK. I have a very thirsty 380 SLC which does at best 15 mpg around town. So let's say a 15 mile round trip costs around £4 to £4.50 for fuel. A one day travelcard for zones 1 & 2 in London is now £4.90...

And margins on retail petrol are very slim. If those figures above are correct, at current prices less than 15% of the retail is left for the retailer's AND the supplier's profit. I challenge anyone to find another product with such low margins.
 
Diesel about 69p/litre in Luxembourg.
But isn't this a movable feast or perhaps an immovable feast?
Are there not several forces at work; the government's (i.e. us) need for tax vs. the insatiable desire of the public to consume fuel no matter the cost, the ecological impact and the decline of a finite resource. Nothing new in that and while it might be satisfying to blame some money grubbing oil companies we have to face the facts of supply and demand, if not for our own sakes at least for our children. We are the ones to blame because no matter what happens we show no signs of wanting to do anything, especially in terms of self sacrifice to improve the situation and build a plan for the future.
And as far as the oil companies living on small margins, having spent several years working as a contractor for some of these I'd say, "Pull the other one.".
 
Well, someone once worked out that if nobody in the UK bought any fuel for an entire day, the price would have to drop dramatically for the oil companies to meet their targets and profit margins etc (not sure on the details), so why dont we all take a stand and make sure we all have enough petrol to last 3 or 4 days and forget the pumps.
Everyone forgets that the world is a consumer driven market. WE control it, we just dont know it. What happens when people stop buying CD's and DVD's - all the major retailers have massive sales to make up for it - same as they did this Christmas. Guess what - most people fell for it and went out and saw good bargains and bought them.
The problem is that as a nation, we are so divided and are unable to speak as one voice. If we were able to, these things would change.
We have the right to complain that taxes and fuel costs are high, but not to complain that we are helpless to do anything about it. If one TV network decided to put a section in the news bulletins throughout the day to say that people should not buy any fuel for 3 or 4 days and to make do as best they could and actually show people what the benefits could be, I am sure more people would be interested in giving it a go. Why does it not happen - the media control information and information is power.
 
It is a matter of choice.

w124 man said:
Well, someone once worked out that if nobody in the UK bought any fuel for an entire day, the price would have to drop dramatically for the oil companies to meet their targets and profit margins etc (not sure on the details), so why dont we all take a stand and make sure we all have enough petrol to last 3 or 4 days and forget the pumps.
Everyone forgets that the world is a consumer driven market. WE control it, we just dont know it.
Because the public i.e. us are slaves to our cars.
I can and do take the bus to work 2 or 3 days a week and in this weather I sometimes go by bicycle (safe route).
For many people it is impractical to take public transportbut many people who could ignore it.
In fact it woudln't even take this, if most people drove economically, followed speed limits and used their anticipation to avoid hard braking and acceleration there would be a large decrease in the demand for fuel and big savings in individuals pockets but how many people complaining about the cost of fuel take any measures that could reduce their costs?
 
w124 man said:
Well, someone once worked out that if nobody in the UK bought any fuel for an entire day, the price would have to drop dramatically for the oil companies to meet their targets and profit margins etc (not sure on the details)

That was a hoax email - unless everyone didn't drive their vehicles they'd simply buy more fuel the following day. As already mentioned, fuel is already retailed at break-even price in the UK (most filling stations rely on the forecourt shop to make a profit).
 
....

The idea of not buying fuel for a day (or 3) is largerly down to theory that it will disrupt logistics of shell-bp-texaco-name-your-own-supplier.

Apparently worked in States once upon a time.,..

Regards
 
league67 said:
The idea of not buying fuel for a day (or 3) is largerly down to theory that it will disrupt logistics of shell-bp-texaco-name-your-own-supplier.

Apparently worked in States once upon a time.,..

Regards

I still think it's a hoax. E.g. if tax/duty rises are predicted, loads of people fill up just before the budget ... resulting in much lower sales the following day. AFAIK that doesn't cause any problem. Refinieries shut down, depots close, ships are diverted - "stuff" happens all the time!
 
i paid 99.9p a litre on sunday next to gleneagles hotel :( and that hit hard on a 100 litre tank in the ML
 
99.9 is nothing!

BP Super at Euston in London cost 104.9p on Sunday afternoon. Crikey I thought as I filled my tank and emptied my wallet.
 
I don't get het up about fuel costs - we choose to use our cars and we choose the cars we use knowing what they drink. It is a luxury even though we try and claim it as a necessity. Cars do damage the environment and we in the world that has ready access to fuel are generally thoughtless or oblivious to the damage we are doing to the rest of the planet that doesn't have access to the juice.:rolleyes:

When the last blockades were on I was more wound up by the siege mentality that took hold with people using more fuel by queuing to just squeeze that extra bit of petrol/diesel into their cars when they wouldn't use it before fuel became available again. Personally I ran my car normally with the thought that if I ran out and couldn't fill up so be it. We would manage. We have legs and shops within walking distance, we are not doctors or nurses or other similar essential services - so for a short time we would cope with the disruption.

What I do get cross about is the cost of public transport being so high that it doesn't encourage people not to use their cars. We will pay whatever it takes to use our cars until public transport is a viable and cheap alternative.
 
pammy said:
We will pay whatever it takes to use our cars until public transport is a viable and cheap alternative.

I can't see the government bending over backwards to sort out public transport when all that revenue is being generated by fuel tax.
It makes me sick the way they hide behind the green scam by increasing fuel tax and imposing congestion charges.
If they really wanted to help the environment they would be working on providing a good and cheap public transport system.
At least some individuals are trying by cycling, walking etc but for the majority there is no real alternative to the car.

Mac.
 
BonzoDog said:
....., if not for our own sakes at least for our children. We are the ones to blame because no matter what happens we show no signs of wanting to do anything, especially in terms of self sacrifice to improve the situation and build a plan for the future.
We need cars because most of us don't work locally. Simple as that.
Public transport generally only runs along main transport routes.
I could get a bus to/from villages along the main routes but not across country.
Anyway, what sort of pollution do you want ? Horses ? or The Great Stink ?

Crude Oil prices used to fall during the Northern Hemisphere summer, but this no longer happens. With China/India demanding more oil, next winter will be a lot more expensive.
 
My company provides a free shuttle bus service, run by the local bus company. While it is very very good between the main sites, the "commuter routes" suck for anyone who can't choose when they want to get to work.

For me to get to work for 8am to start my shift, I either have to arrive at work 10 mins late, or over an hour early. To catch the earlier bus means leaving my house at about 6am.

To do the same journey in the car takes a little over 15 minutes. I would walk or cycle it, but frankly don't fancy getting killed, as the roads to work are fast and quite busy.

I'd would love to be able to catch the bus to work and leave the car at home, but I'm damned if I'm leaving the house over 2 hours earlier than necessary to do so.
 
I hope I never have to give up my car and get on bus or a train with a bunch of other people. :(

I've got absolutely no problem in driving a hybrid battery powered zero emission hydrogen fuel cell fresh air propelled car though, providing its as nippy and comfortable as I'd want a car to be. :)

I think (hope!) the future doesn't lie in forcing our working practices back 50 years or making us all get public transport, but lies in improving the technology and increasing the efficiency of what we've got and what we're developing.
 

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