Future Classics?

Matt32AMG

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So was the model T, the Mk1 escort, the Capri, etc. It's not about engineering standards, it's about nostalgia.
Agreed, it's about nostalgia, as none of those cars you mention in stock form could be described as great handling, or well built, or quality in comparisons to their, shall we say premium contemporaries of the time. These cars conjure up a memory, but is it a classic? No but the memory is to the individual. If a classic by definition is by virtue of the fact that 99% got scrapped and that’s the last of a handful remaining, then I venture it has to be for nostalgic reasons. To my mind the classics are the Ford Escort RS 1600 Mexico’s, Lotus Cortina, maybe the RS 3.0 litre Capri. Better candidates are the RS Cosworth’s. or Group B RS 200 cars. See the pattern, they are all specials. They are the cars that become collectable and sought after.

The model T is a veteran car not a classic, and was the first cheap massed produced car of its type from 1908 to 1927. Given the lack of competition you might say, it had the monopoly, certainly during and after the 1st war while the rest of Europe was kind of busy either fighting or rebuilding itself. Henry Ford saw the niche in the market, enter stage right and Model T this was the cheap solution. Mass produced, it kept the overhead costs down and Ford were able to offer it at a price that the masses could afford.

I think you'll find it IS a question, simply poorly punctuated.
RH

No, not in the context in which I wrote it. That is purely your interpretation or opinion. ;)

How many will be future classics vs how many AMGs?
RH

How many what, will be future classics? Do you mean cars in general? That’s a how long is a piece of string question.
As to how many AMG cars will be collectable or classic will be driven by the market and who wants them, given their place in history.

If it's not about AMG, how come your R170 makes the grade but my R170 doesn't?
RH

If you are asking about the SLK230 K, see my earlier answer in this thread, but the similarities in the SLK230K and the SLK32AMG stop at the vario roof and basic body design. Don’t get me wrong I ran a 230K for two years before buying my 32. I’m not putting it down, it was a fabulous car. I just took what I deemed to be the next logical step in SLK ownership and upgraded to the top of the range AMG car. In doing so it soon became obvious as to why just about everything has been tuned or changed by AMG to make it the sports car that it is, a far cry from the car that hit the streets in 1996. In order to deliver this BMW M Roadster beater, that was what was clearly required, and it couldn't have come at a better time since the M Roadster (and coupe) just a 75-horsepower jump in the form of the M3's new high-revving straight six. Read the revues of the SLK32amg it’s all out there, draw your own conclusions.

It was this car that enabled access to supercar performance at a relatively affordable price that can be driven as an every day car. Back in 2002 it was not commonplace and you would have to spend a fair amount more to buy a Porsche that could match it, and a king’s ransom for a Ferrari in comparison. The point is, here was a car that could do all that at a fraction of the cost, relatively speaking. That’s what makes it a stand out car at the time with the new SCV6 power plant. It’s no ordinary V6 engine, it’s a high performance individually hand built unit and to compliment the engine, the gear box was also upgraded and revised to handle the power and change gear 30% quicker than it’s automatic counterparts. It also learned your driving style. This was new innovative stuff.
It was a super car that required fettling once every 12000 miles, which was pretty un heard of territory at the time, which kept maintenance costs down.

No not a car for the masses but a car for the enthusiast that offers a sporting solution in the true sense, but one that does it in relative comfort. It’s that entire package that makes it what it is, a future classic in my view.

When we think of a mini or a range rover as a classic we don't tend to discuss exact engine sizes.

RH

Don’t we?

These are just my thoughts and my personal views, clearly others will say differently, and that’s fine, it’s a free country, there is no right or wrong answer, but for the definitive answer only time will tell. :)
 
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Matt32AMG

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We're agreed on the conversion factors and the fact that PS is slightly higher than hp/bhp.

I think the confusion arises from the fact that US-spec SLK32 AMG is rated at 349hp (or 260kW) at 6100rpm, which happens to translate into 354PS (sometimes referred to as 'metric hp').

If the European-spec SLK32 AMG is rated at 354hp, that would equate to 359PS.

(All figures rounded to the nearest integer.)

You sure the US cars weren't slightly down on HP for emissions reasons? It used to be the same when I ran Porsche, US spec cars were always down a bit on power rating.

I'm only quoting what is in my European Owners handbook which clearly states BHP. If it were PS surely it would state it or Metric BHP :)
 

Matt32AMG

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Speaking as an engineer...Not an insult to production engineering.
For the masses... As was Model-T and original Mini.
:dk:
Quirky etc..... Yes what we call design.

Or what we call in R&D, keeping the overheads and development costs down. :rolleyes:

In all my posts I am referring to the original Ka only.

And that makes a difference ;)
 

A140driver

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I think the whole issue of what will and what won't become a classic is rather a touchy point. I agree, a lot of the AMGs will survive in larger percentages than a lot of other Mercs. Rarity will always sell classics as that really does appeal to people, as does good parts availability. I do believe that the A-class will eventually gain classic status due to its revolutionary design and the fact that, for many people it was the first opportunity to buy a Mercedes, or in some cases and opportunity to have a second Mercedes. Lots of people will remember being taken to school in them, or their grandparents having one, so hopefully they will gain a following. As regards cars which are currently regarded as classics, often mass market cars will gain a real following, especially cars which, at their time of production were quality cars. That's why I've decided to buy a Rover P6, which I will be collecting on Saturday.
 

poormansporsche

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Buyers apparently thought otherwise.

Mercedes sold 7 times more R129's over a similar period.

It was a lemon.


I dont think the 8 series was a lemon as such, just (apparently) completely overpriced. I personally love the butch looks, its a proper "mans" car in the same way that the W126 SEC is. Dont get me wrong I love the 129 but its much more "pretty". Although the 3 main cars in my dream garage would be a 8, a SEC and a 129 :)
 

b11ocx

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I think a vital aspect of this argument has been overlooked.

How many of the overly electronic controlled modern cars will still be financially serviceable in 15 years time. If an ECU is £2k today, how much more will it be to have something created to control that trick roof once the ECU has gone NLA.

The classic community, in the main, want to maintain cars at a sensible cost either at home or outside of the dealer network. The more dependant they are on electronics the less possible this will be. Perhaps the best pointer to this is the number of "the system said change xxx sensor and that has not fixed the problem" threads you see all over the Internet.
 

timskemp

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In 20 years time anything with the 63 engine will be held in reverence for it's audacity of causing so much environmental impact in the pursuit of pleasure. I reckon the prices of them will bottom out at about 10 yrs old then start to climb as they become rarer.
 

manalishi

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How many of the overly electronic controlled modern cars will still be financially serviceable in 15 years time. If an ECU is £2k today, how much more will it be to have something created to control that trick roof once the ECU has gone NLA.

Good point. In 20 years time there'll be people having to bolt Webers onto C63s just to get them to go. :D
 

b11ocx

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One of the reasons I went for an R107 over an R129 was the increased electronics on the newer car......having said that it may have had lower rust so QED
 

dinoy

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surpised nobody mentioned SLK55 AMG it is a little rocket
w124 E500
w124 convertible (i am yet to see somebody putting 500 engine in one).

and of course E36 w124 for they so rare the command 20k for a convertible.

but my tip is the SLS cannot wait to see their prices in 10 years time when they bottom out to get one! but i am sure they will hold their price like SLR due to rarity
 

timskemp

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How many of the overly electronic controlled modern cars will still be financially serviceable in 15 years time. If an ECU is £2k today, how much more will it be to have something created to control that trick roof once the ECU has gone NLA.

The classic community, in the main, want to maintain cars at a sensible cost either at home or outside of the dealer network. The more dependant they are on electronics the less possible this will be. Perhaps the best pointer to this is the number of "the system said change xxx sensor and that has not fixed the problem" threads you see all over the Internet.

In 15 yrs time if there's a range of cars that people want to keep going then there'll be some universal industrial computer interface thing to keep them going.

Don't forget that all the roof controllers do is activate a motor / solenoid, then wait for a sensor, then do another, in a sequence. Easy to replicate. And all an engine ECU does is time ignition / injection from a range of sensor inputs - there's nothing special in any of them other than the mapping. Even bits that are percieved "specialist" like SBC will live on as electric cars etc will need electric braking systems. The main issue will be about economy of repair - I just dropped a big repair (torque converter) on a car worth about 4 grand - with labour rates rising annually it becomes easy for a car to be beyond economic very quickly.
 

AnilS

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I dont think the 8 series was a lemon as such, just (apparently) completely overpriced. I personally love the butch looks, its a proper "mans" car in the same way that the W126 SEC is. Dont get me wrong I love the 129 but its much more "pretty". Although the 3 main cars in my dream garage would be a 8, a SEC and a 129 :)

Agreed. I like your thinking. See my sig;) but I'm still on the lookout for a nice 8 :)
 

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