Gemballa 500SEC Wide Body at Barons

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Wow!

Can you ask him if he still has that stunning BMW 750i that he used as his 'family' car *runs and ducks for cover as the MB crowd begin to throw wiring looms and roof pumps at me*

:)

If anyone knows how to contact the equiv at AMG in my long long hunt for the C140 AMG kit that was a factory option, that would be great Failing that, I am just going to turn up at their door in Feb since no response to emails!

I have a couple of email address for helpful guys at the AMG factory in Germany that helped me source original W126 AMG parts. (On my work computer), PM me or email me off list and I'll pass them on.

They will not sell to you directly, but they will tell you if they exist, if they have some and what the part numbers are for you to order the bits through your local dealer.

Alan.
 
Maybe you can answer this once you've stopped yawning.

talbir


Well I stopped yawning and decided to call a mate who put me in contact with Uwe Gemballa...yes, the owner and founder of Gemballa.....have subsequently been sending a couple of e-mails back and forth and here's the concluding one.

His opinion....and I list out his e-mail below....bearing in mind, his English is not the greatest.

Make of it what you will.

>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Uwe Gemballa" <
> To: <martin.
> Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2008 11:38 AM
> Subject: Re-4: Neue Anfrage
>
>
>
>> Than I think it is a car from Zender and the interior was not made from
>> us together with no special paintwork. It is not a Gemballa car.
>>
>> regards
>>
>> uwe Gemballa
>>
>>
>>
>> __________________________________________________
>>
>> Mit besten Grüßen / Best regards
>> Distinti saluti / Saludos / Yoroshiku onegai shimasu
>>
>> Uwe Gemballa
>> Management / Export Sales
>>
>>
>> GEMBALLA Automobiltechnik GmbH & Co. KG
>> Mollenbachstrasse 17
>> D-71229 Leonberg
>> Phone: +49 (0) 71 52 / 9 79 90 11
>> Fax: +49 (0) 71 52 / 9 79 90 55
>> Email:
>> Web: >>
>> Sitz der Gesellschaft Leonberg.
>> Geschäftsführer: Uwe Gemballa
>> HRA 4270, Amtsgericht Leonberg.
>> __________________________________________________[/quote]



Well, there is nothing there that we didn't know already, except the denial that is not Gemballa. I already mentioned the Zender parts, however take a look at all Zender bodykits in there catalogue and there are no slats in the rear flares. These are typical signature of a Gemballa conversion.

True, all Gemballa cars received special paintwork, but if you're relying on Uwe Gemballa to make a call based on the picture, then it's a tough one. Did you simply send him a picture or the chassis number. How about we send him the chassis number ?

If he is making the call based on current pictures, then it may not be recognisable as a Gemballa anymore because of the interior. Gemballa didn't just produce one Mercedes conversion, so i will be keen to see if the original Gemballa next to the Learjet is regarded as a Gemballa.

talbir
 
I have a couple of email address for helpful guys at the AMG factory in Germany that helped me source original W126 AMG parts. (On my work computer), PM me or email me off list and I'll pass them on.

They will not sell to you directly, but they will tell you if they exist, if they have some and what the part numbers are for you to order the bits through your local dealer.

Alan.

You can source the original MB AMG w126 narrow body ground effects at any dealership in the UK so long as you have the conversion part numbers from the C788 **** numbers that exist on the AMG parts.

Widebody parts are NLA, except those that are common between widebody and narrowbody, like the rear apron, boot spoiler.

talbir
 
I'm sorry but that is complete and utter tripe.

Any decent bodyshop will fit a wide body kit for you (isn't that just what Jay is doing at the moment with a kit you sold him?) and any decent DIYer will be able to do it given enough time. You are forever going on about how well AMG parts fit so perfectly does their quality control stop at body kits?

Best ask Jay what he's doing with the widebody kit. Last time i spoke with him, it wasn't going to be entrusted to a local average bodyshop. Note my detail about 'average'.

I assume from your dialogue above you have never in person handled or fitted a Widebody kit. Do you know the rear flares are not bolt on ? They have to be riveted on with precision alignment ?

As for it being easier to rebuild a drive train (presumably including all the suspension etc and interior) than swapping a body kit from one car to another. I find that impossible to believe.

As well as fitting Widebody kits from scratch i have also done suspension changes and engine swaps in my back garden. I can do a complete w126 suspension (springs and struts) change in under 5 hours, i have done a full engine swap in under 12 hours (removing two engines from two cars, swapping and fitting and wiring), i have done diff changes in 3 hours.

Drivetrain mods take only hours to complete each stage...widebody kits/coachwork can take weeks....the guys who fitted my AMG widebody kit took about 200+ man hours to fit the entire 9 piece kit. If you have ever seen/handled the rear flares, you'll appreciate what a challenge they are. It's got nothing to do with AMG quality, the panels are quality, but they are flares....not bolt on panels at the rear. And secondly, any fibreglass kit requires more work as it must be bonded to the original pieces....most of the wide wide Koenig/Gemballa/Zender pieces were fibreglass.

I speak from personal experience and first hand work on these w126 cars.

You read Vlad's description of the car and I'd rather take the opinion of someone who's seen the car with all the cracks where the kit joined the body (hardly craftsman fitted) than an as yet anonymous "expert" who has only seen photos

Vlad also gave a verdict on my Hammer which was a million miles away from the truth (and members of this forum have seen the car and can objectivey verify) and also descried the car as 'having a hole cut in the roof for the sunroof'...original MB card shows it came with a sunroof from factory. So understandable if i fail to give credit to any more such verdicts.


talbir
 
Yup that's where I got them, but the dealer network didn't have the part numbers listed, so I got them from AMG, took them to my local dealer in Redhill who sent it all up to Milton Keynes and had them added to the parts system.

All lower parts still available but now very limited, boot spoilers been no longer available for some time now.
 
Yup that's where I got them, but the dealer network didn't have the part numbers listed, so I got them from AMG, took them to my local dealer in Redhill who sent it all up to Milton Keynes and had them added to the parts system.

All lower parts still available but now very limited, boot spoilers been no longer available for some time now.


Nice move Alan....good to share the knowledge by feeding the part numbers back to the local guys. I know some tight people who get hold of something and don't share it with anyone...


talbir
 
Talbir,

The moment you told us that even though Uwe Gemballa says it's not one of his cars yet you insist that even he is wrong and he's just failed to recognise it is the moment ANY of your arguments lost any credibility.

Just for the record, yes I'm fully aware (from personal experience) on the pitfalls of fitting body kits, working with fibreglass, replacing panels, fabricating my own repair panels, body and chassis welding etc.

I also know that if it took them 200 man hours they were either working very slowly or the kit was a crappy fit.

200 hours equates to over 22 hours per panel for a nine panel kit !!!!

Nothing fits that badly or is that hard to fit for a decent body shop (you'll note I didn't say average either).

I'm sure you'll happily argue until the cows come home that you are right and everybody else is wrong but I think you'll find that most of us have stopped listening
 
Back to my post on the last page. I find a little less absolute confidence and matter of fact statements, actually more convincing.

The addition of in my view, in my opinion, or I beleive rather than it is, makes the all the difference in how you are percieved. In my view :D
 
Disagree completely - exactly who would you speak to at Gemballa ? Who at Gemballa would even have records of this car ?

Try speaking to AMG about their Hammers - you'll get no info at all.

True, all Gemballa cars received special paintwork, but if you're relying on Uwe Gemballa to make a call based on the picture, then it's a tough one. Did you simply send him a picture or the chassis number. How about we send him the chassis number ?


talbir

So are we saying Gemballa keep a record of chassis numbers or not?

Someone get the chassis number congirmed from Gemballa and end this!
 
Talbir,

The moment you told us that even though Uwe Gemballa says it's not one of his cars yet you insist that even he is wrong and he's just failed to recognise it is the moment ANY of your arguments lost any credibility.

Just for the record, yes I'm fully aware (from personal experience) on the pitfalls of fitting body kits, working with fibreglass, replacing panels, fabricating my own repair panels, body and chassis welding etc.

I also know that if it took them 200 man hours they were either working very slowly or the kit was a crappy fit.

200 hours equates to over 22 hours per panel for a nine panel kit !!!!

Nothing fits that badly or is that hard to fit for a decent body shop (you'll note I didn't say average either).

I'm sure you'll happily argue until the cows come home that you are right and everybody else is wrong but I think you'll find that most of us have stopped listening


It's not a simple equation of 200/9....quite clearly you have no experience of the AMG widbody kit.

4 of the panels are bolt on, front and rear skirts are timely, but the bulk of the time is on the rear flares, which attach to the original quarter panel. Until you have first hand experience of the Widebody kits, it's wrong to dismiss them as crap or the fitters as slow.


As for the Gemballa, read Uwe's email. It is clear he is being asked to make a decision based on the current status pictures of the car....his comments that the interior is not original, the colour is not special...almost working through a checklist of items to conclude it is not Gemballa. However, if the colour of the car has gone flat over time and the interior changed, then that criteria will lead to a conclusion that it is not Gemballa.

As an example, email Ron Stratton/AMG with current pictures of Vlads old Hammer and ask if it is original AMG. They would look at the car and say, wrong wheels, different seats, diferent boot spoiler....not a car we did !

Now does that mean the car is not genuine just because the head of the tuning company has made a decision based on current status which has changed significantly from original state ?

This car has been matched to the car in the Learjet pics...so if Uwe confirms that the car in the Learjet pics is not a Gemballa then we have a definitive answer. Until that point, the verdict based on current pictures is not conclusive for the reasons above.

talbir
 
Back to my post on the last page. I find a little less absolute confidence and matter of fact statements, actually more convincing.

The addition of in my view, in my opinion, or I beleive rather than it is, makes the all the difference in how you are percieved. In my view :D


I see no harm in having belief in one's views and a debate...it's how people and ideas progress.

Despite the false accusation, i have not abused anyone, i have not waded into quote someone's post and say 'what a load of tripe', i have given my views based on my experience and knowledge.

I'll be the first to hold up my hands and take both barrels of the shotgun if i'm wrong, no harm in that. It's not my Gemballa !

But i have a passion for these cars and their history and find it a tad disconcerting when people with little experience of w126 Widebodies/tuner cars and little passion for these pieces of history slag of a car they clearly have little knowledge about.

I said it was a Zender kit and Uwe confirmed that, also confirming that Gemballa used there pieces in their conversions. Now we need to see if Uwe can confirm the Learjet car as a Gemballa or not, as the cars have been matched.

talbir
 
Talbir,

The moment you told us that even though Uwe Gemballa says it's not one of his cars yet you insist that even he is wrong and he's just failed to recognise it is the moment ANY of your arguments lost any credibility.

Correction, please re-read my post, i did not at any point 'told'/'insist' that Uwe was wrong, i didn't even imply he was wrong. What i said/asked in clear plain English is what information on the car has been supplied to Uwe for him to base his decision on. It appears current pics have been supplied....what needs to be dnoe is supply the original pics as well and then get a verdict.

How does this get interpreted as me insisting anyone is wrong ?i'm challenging the information supplied that forms the basis of the decision.

talbir
 
To be fair to Talbir, the comment in Uwe's email reads as "my first impression - I can't be ar5ed to actually look into it properly".
 
How does this get interpreted as me insisting anyone is wrong ?i'm challenging the information supplied that forms the basis of the decision.
talbir

That's all Vlad was doing when he asked who your expert was and how he came to his conclusion.

9 pages on a car that should have been crushed for a crime to car design anyway :eek:.
 
That's all Vlad was doing when he asked who your expert was and how he came to his conclusion.

9 pages on a car that should have been crushed for a crime to car design anyway :eek:.


I agree, most of the Sytling Garage, Gemballa, Koenig conversions are lairy and outrageous...but also gripping and fascinating with it ;)


talbir
 
To be fair to Talbir, the comment in Uwe's email reads as "my first impression - I can't be ar5ed to actually look into it properly".


Also the first word is 'Than', which may mean 'then' which would likely be a response to previous dialogue. I'm keen to see the entire exchange and info supplied.

talbir
 
The following pictures should bring us a step closer....Zender's widebodykit is shown on the SEC in the catalog pic below, clearly there is Gemballa modification as can be seen on the Gemballa catolog pic below.


The plot thickens...
 
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Aha, the catalog re the SEC next to the Learjet above says Gemballa !

This car has been matched to the Barons auction car - so by that token the Barons car is Gemballa.

Also note the Zender kit and the Gemballa car....no way the Barons car is just a Zender kit as pics above show. There have been many mods to the Zender kit, sugegsting a Gemballa hallmark all over.

Also, 25 years is a long time to remember based on some minimal pictures from today. I wouldn't admit to that being my car either if i was still tuning Porsches (which is what gemballa still do) for high end customers.


talbir
 
Does it matter?

The car is ugly...and needs tonnes of work.

Good luck to the new buyer with the restoration...End of.
 
Does it matter?

The car is ugly...and needs tonnes of work.

Good luck to the new buyer with the restoration...End of.


Yes, it does matter...we as MB enthusiasts should be trying to establish the real history of this car, the detail of which determines whether this car is a 1k car or a 15k car.


talbir
 

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