Gemballa 500SEC Wide Body at Barons

[A210AMG]

Surely in the current state its a 1K car anyway?

Its only worth more if someone car do it up?

Like someone esle said its like haveing a rare piece of pottery worth £1000 but mine has a broken lid so its worth £100

 

[Ade B]

Yes, it does matter...we as MB enthusiasts should be trying to establish the real history of this car, the detail of which determines whether this car is a 1k car or a 15k car.


talbir

Determining the provenance of the car is an interesting thing in its self irrespective of final value - I would have thought there are only a handful of people in the world into these rather unique and bonkers 80's benzes enough to part with top dollar for them making it a very small market.

Not my cup of tea but I'm happy that someone cares about them enough to pursue it otherwise these things just disappear.

I'd be interested to see if anything further comes from the enquiries (without it degenerating into a brawl please)..


Ade

 

[GrahamC230K]

Can I just ask is there any possibility of there being two styles of Zender kit available?

 

[talbir]

Can I just ask is there any possibility of there being two styles of Zender kit available?

We've scanned through all Zender catalog and whilst there are variations on the narrow body kits, namely between Gen I and II, there appears only 1 Widebody kit.

The widebody kit would not differ w.r.t. rear flares as the rear quarter panels betwen Gen I and II are identical.

AMG's widebody kit is also the same front and rear wings/flares between Gen I and Gen II, i.e. AMG also only produced one widebody kit, variances existed only between front and rear bumper spoilers throughout production years to accomodate changes between Gen I and II.


talbir

 

[talbir]

Surely in the current state its a 1K car anyway?

Its only worth more if someone car do it up?

Like someone esle said its like haveing a rare piece of pottery worth £1000 but mine has a broken lid so its worth £100

I'm not sure that it's worth 1k in current state, as a Gemballa piece even in dire condition, it could command upto 5k as it stands. Once restored and with it's Gemballa history, it could command upto 20k. Note that there is a Styling Garage Gullwing w126 in the UK that sold in recent years on ebay for circa 30k allegedly....that car has lost it's original wheels, has no visible engine mods but was an excellent condition original Styling Garage modified w126. Gemballa were far higher quality than Styling Garage, so i would expect premium levels to be similar if not more.

Now if it is proven that this car is not a Gemballa, then it'd barely be worth the £1100 + premium that was paid for it recently, and not a great deal more once fully restored.

But all that i have seen, discussed and read suggests it is the very Gemballa in the Learjet pics, but one that has for some reason lost some of the original Gemballa upgrades.


talbir

 

[talbir]

Determining the provenance of the car is an interesting thing in its self irrespective of final value - I would have thought there are only a handful of people in the world into these rather unique and bonkers 80's benzes enough to part with top dollar for them making it a very small market.

Ade

Absolutely agree, getting the history and putting the car back to it's original glory is what this is all about, the investment/financial aspect is very very secondary (except for some profit makers out there). I am hugely passionate about these 80s crazy cars, i wish i could buy them all and open a museum !



talbir

 

[stats007]

Now that would be a quiet place to visit .

 

[talbir]

Now that would be a quiet place to visit .

Quiet but loud !

talbir

 

[500E]

Talbir - I was not denting your enthusiasm for these old supercars..i'm not sure anyone would be able to dent it anyways. I am also an MB enthusiast with several nice MB vehicles in our family fleet (namely the E500 and the 43 which are nothing compared to your "garage" full!)

However, I think we were getting a little out of hand just discussing the authenticity of the vehicle.

If there is no definitive way to prove whether this is an original Gemballa vehicle (of which it might well be) then words against words is not really achieving anything.

If we had the actual chassis numbers cross matched and confirmed then that would be something else.

Cuppa tea anyone?

 

[talbir]

Agree, though not sure about the garage comparison, with a 500e in the fleet, you can compare with anything ! One 500E is worth a garage full of icons !

I do feel that one can learn through these debates / discussions, and next time such a car comes along we can hopefully aserctain more efficiently the authenticity.

I have learnt so much over the years through these forums and such debates....sure i get passionate and am forceful in my discussion, but surely no one takes all of this seriously do they ? !

It's only metal ! And fibreglass !!!

Off to Costa !

cheers
talbir

 

[500E]

Thanks Talbir.

I'm glad you take the discussion lightly - they can get out of hand.

Yes, end of the day, its only a car! ONLY!

I'm on the lookout for another cheapish 500E, nothing mint, something I can breathe on myself - let me know if you have seen any for sale. As long as the mechanics are good, then i'll be interested.

Thanks,
Bilal.

 

[andy_k]

This car has been matched to the Barons auction car - so by that token the Barons car is Gemballa.

If you could explain to us all how it's been matched to that car I'm sure everyone would happily agree with you.

Just saying "someone who knows what they are talking about told me" isn't enough. We need to know how the chassis number of the Baron's car can be matched to a catalogue picture from 20 odd years ago.

We also need to know (other than because an expert says so) why the car has changed so much in appearance that the only bits which identify it seem to be poorly fitted body panels. It's lost it's interior, it's running gear, it's engine, wheels, dials and other electrics and most of it's other originality.

Without that genuine provenance and the denial from Uwe Gemballa himself the Baron's car is just a tatty old, badly customised SEC with a Zender body kit that looks a bit like something else

 

[talbir]

Well, my black 500E is available. I dunno what your definition of cheapish is but PM me if you like.

Here's the spec :


- Black 040
- Black leather with Recaro Ergonomeds (heated and 3-stage orthopaedic)
- Remus back box, original 500E specification piece, receipt in file
- r129 SL600 braking system
- r129 SL AMG 2-piece alloys by BBS
- w124 E60 AMG front roll bar
- Koni adjustable front shock absorbers
- H&R springs all round
- Self levelling rear suspension
- AMG homologated steering wheel with airbag
- Electric rear view mirror and auto dimming ! Yes, electric rear view mirror !
- Twin electric wing mirrors, heated
- Tracker fitted
- Cat I alarm fitted
- Electric steering column
- Electric rear blind
- Air conditioning and working perfectly
- Perfect engine and gearbox,with whole host of original paperwork/file
- Everything works perfectly !
- Bose speakers with Sony sound system and CD changer
- ‘Mercedes Benz’ door sills

Perfect mechanicals !

As i ahve mentioned i'l be looking for a project 500E to be the donor car for the Renntech 6.3 m119 i have ready.

cheers
talbir

 

[talbir]

If you could explain to us all how it's been matched to that car I'm sure everyone would happily agree with you.

Just saying "someone who knows what they are talking about told me" isn't enough. We need to know how the chassis number of the Baron's car can be matched to a catalogue picture from 20 odd years ago.

We also need to know (other than because an expert says so) why the car has changed so much in appearance that the only bits which identify it seem to be poorly fitted body panels. It's lost it's interior, it's running gear, it's engine, wheels, dials and other electrics and most of it's other originality.

Without that genuine provenance and the denial from Uwe Gemballa himself the Baron's car is just a tatty old, badly customised SEC with a Zender body kit that looks a bit like something else

Already told you it's been matched via the chassis numbers. The guy who has the records has these details, i didn't say he was an expert without reason !

As for why so much of it has changed, we'll need more details from owners. Not sure how you ascertained that it's lost it's running gear ?

It's not a pure Zender bodykit, did you not see the pics from the Zender Widebody catalog posted up ?

Just as you feel that it is not a Gemballa because Uwe has said so based on scant information, i can argue the equal and opposite of that, i.e. this
is a Gemballa because you have not yet proven otherwise ! Please prove that it is a pure Zender bodykit only in the first instance.

talbir

 

[A210AMG]

Is that a real Renntech 6.3 ?............


Runs and ducks for cover

 

[andy_k]

Already told you it's been matched via the chassis numbers. The guy who has the records has these details, i didn't say he was an expert without reason !

so you (or your expert) can identify the chassis number of a car in a 20 odd year old catalogue which doesn't have any registration mark on it? (I refer to your point about "scant" information)

You'll forgive me for thinking that this all seems a bit of a desperate and far fetched attempt to prove a point and turning it around telling me to prove it's not genuine.

I really have stopped listening (and replying) now it's just too silly for words

 

[talbir]

Is that a real Renntech 6.3 ?............


Runs and ducks for cover

Absolutely ! Got the block last year, it was a 6.2 Renntech block...we've sleeved it and bored out a bit more. Serious head and valve work. Already flow tested to deliver 520+ bhp.

The Renntech product delivered 475bhp. But ours has serious head work by one of the best race engineers in the US.

Oh, and mated to a 6 spd manual, with a 3.06 diff.

This 500E will run rings round Hammers and E55s !

talbir

 

[talbir]

so you (or your expert) can identify the chassis number of a car in a 20 odd year old catalogue which doesn't have any registration mark on it? (I refer to your point about "scant" information)

You'll forgive me for thinking that this all seems a bit of a desperate and far fetched attempt to prove a point and turning it around telling me to prove it's not genuine.

I really have stopped listening (and replying) now it's just too silly for words

I didn't turn it around, you made a statement about it being a Zender kit, i asked you to prove it's a pure Zender kit, given the catalog pics i posted up.

I have posted up info and pics and reasoning.

You keep asking me to prove this and that, i ask you to prove one detail and you say you're not listening anymore ?

Gee !

talbir

 

[Doodle]

I'm seeing shades of a Monty Python sketch here...

 

[andy_k]

I'm seeing shades of a Monty Python sketch here...

I don't think that paint is Norwegian Blue