german car makers rigged market?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by nick mercedes, Jul 22, 2017.

  1. nick mercedes

    nick mercedes MB Club Veteran

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    Another week, another scare from the German car industry.

    What began with Daimler AG’s massive recall of more than 3 million diesel cars to lower their emissions, ended on Friday with Audi also embarking on a voluntary recall of 850,000 vehicles. Adding to the spate of bad news was a report in Der Spiegel magazine that the biggest car manufacturers -- Daimler, BMW AG and Volkswagen AG as well as VW’s Audi and Porsche brands -- may have colluded for decades on technology. The companies declined to comment.

    Shares of BMW, VW and Daimler tumbled on the report, which cited a document submitted by Volkswagen in July 2016 and referenced another from Daimler. The German cartel office said in a statement that it searched the car companies last year as part of a probe into a possible steel cartel.

    According to the Spiegel report, the five German car brands met starting in the 1990s to coordinate activities related to their vehicle technology, costs, suppliers and strategy as well as emissions controls in diesel engines. The discussions involved more than 200 employees in 60 working groups in areas including auto development, gasoline and diesel motors, brakes and transmissions. Talks may have also involved the size of tanks for AdBlue fluid for diesel autos, the magazine reported, which is at the heart of the emissions case.

    “These allegations look very serious and would mean more than 20 years of potential collusion,” said Juergen Pieper, a Frankfurt-based analyst with Bankhaus Metzler. “There seems to be a never ending story of bad news about the industry’s bad behavior.”

    Volkswagen fell as much as 4.9 percent, while shares of Daimler, the maker of Mercedes-Benz vehicles, declined as much as 3.2 percent and BMW slid 3.4 percent

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...-in-diesel-recall-as-emissions-scrutiny-grows
     
  2. Lennox

    Lennox Hardcore MB Enthusiast

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    Rigged or just well organised to create comparative parallel competition between brands, resulting in an almost complete take over across the board....

    From Seat MII to Rolls-Royce zee Germans have it sown up!


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  3. MikeInWimbledon

    MikeInWimbledon Hardcore MB Enthusiast

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    But why is it a surprise?

    Does anyone think that any nation's car manufacturers don't:

    a) Share some initiatives & responses

    b) Work together to get the best out of the global regulatory situation they find themselves in

    Volkswagen, Porsche, Audi, Daimler und BMW unter Kartellverdacht - SPIEGEL ONLINE

    The only thing surprising about this exercise is why journalists and regulators haven't jumped to the obvious conclusion that American and (possibly) even Japanese companies have probably also worked their way around diesel regulations, as well as Germany and, probably, France.

    http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-peugeot-diesel-idUKKBN17Q1S4


    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2017
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  4. Scooby_Doo

    Scooby_Doo Hardcore MB Enthusiast

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    Renault engine in the "A" Class.;)
     
  5. brucemillar

    brucemillar MB Club Veteran

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    Oh come on??? Next they will be trying tell us, car manufacturers rig their mileage/mpg figures.
     
  6. MarkACLS

    MarkACLS Hardcore MB Enthusiast

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    There are cross company working bodies and 'standards groups' across every technical / engineering type of discipline.

    It is collusion if it is a) secret and a closed club or b) if it price fixes and stops market competition.

    I haven't read anything yet that suggests either...

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  7. OP
    OP
    nick mercedes

    nick mercedes MB Club Veteran

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    "The Spiegel article said that one aim of the collusion was to obstruct competition, with the carmakers agreeing on costs for components or technical details such as convertible roofs.

    “The allegations are quite detailed, so it’s unlikely there’s this much smoke without fire,” said Christian Ludwig, an analyst at Bankhaus Lampe in Germany, who estimates any fines could run into the billions. “In the current environment, that’s a another hit.”"
     
  8. DrFeelgood

    DrFeelgood MB Club Veteran

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    At least they haven't been colluding to keep prices up, have they?
     
  9. markjay

    markjay MB Club Veteran

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    Bloomberg will be reviewing this from a very specific angle, and this is the short, mid, and long-term effect on share values.

    In that sense even smoke without fire is very significant.
     
  10. OP
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    nick mercedes

    nick mercedes MB Club Veteran

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    If it transpires that they are far dirtier than they should be, residuals will suffer, and customers will find the GFV fictional?

    Thus all those who bought via PCP (pretty well everyone) will have been mis-sold?
     
  11. Dippo

    Dippo Hardcore MB Enthusiast

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  12. tron

    tron Hardcore MB Enthusiast

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    If they are all at it (Which in a very competitive manufacturing industry, we would be right to expect) then it wouldn't have made a ha'porth of difference to us until the muck raking jackals of the gutter press decided to make a meal of it. Now all the companies will lose share value and be fined hundreds of millions which they will have to recoup - FROM US!
     
  13. OP
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    nick mercedes

    nick mercedes MB Club Veteran

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    Aren't the fumes killing us and the cars overpriced?
     
  14. OP
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    nick mercedes

    nick mercedes MB Club Veteran

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    "Dieselgate Product Of Vast VW-BMW-Daimler Car Cartel Conspiracy, Fresh Report Says"

    "Two years ago, the dieselgate scandal just started to unfold, I recommended to dig deeper, and to dig elsewhere than Volkswagen, because having worked in said industry, I knew that dieselgate is everywhere. Everybody in the industry knew it, but nobody talked. In America, dieselgate-cheaters are behind bars, while in Europe, emissions cheating is treated as a lesser offense than illegal parking: Not a single fine was handed out in Europe. Today, peccadillo suddenly morphed into a monstrous antitrust case when it became known that dieselgate is the product of a secret cartel far beyond Volkswagen. “Audi, BMW, Daimler, Volkswagen, and Porsche colluded for years in more than 1000 meetings,” wrote Der Spiegel [German, paywall] today.

    Germany's Handelsblatt has a similar report. EU antitrust regulators confirmed investigations, Reuters wrote.

    The dieselgate scandal never was as simple as the common good prevailing over the villain Volkswagen. Today, we may begin to understand the true enormity of a scandal that involves a cabal of carmakers and politicians."

    "For two decades, more than 200 managers and engineers of five large German automakers met in 60 different task forces to coordinate “the development of cars, costs, suppliers, and markets,” wrote der Spiegel. “They cooperated in secrecy, as closely as one would expect it from the divisions of one company, of a German Auto Inc – or a cartel.”

    According to the report, the cartel colluded on everything from the soft-top of a convertible to the assessment of suppliers. The German Five also agreed on the size of the urea, or AdBlue tank.

    The diesel engine was Europe's answer to CO2 curbs. Diesel also was an answer to a Japanese threat, says Der Spiegel. Toyota lowered consumption and CO2 with its hybrid engine. Diesel also is more efficient, and therefore produces less CO2. At the same time, the diesel engines makes something much nastier: Nitrogen Oxide (NOx) a gas that leads to the premature death of 72,000 people per year, as the European Environmental Agency said. NOx can be neutralized with AdBlue. The liquid needs a tank, and the bigger the tank, the more money it costs. If automakers would agree on a moderately sized AdBlue tank, they could save “up to 80 EUR [$93] per vehicle” the minutes of one of the secret meetings are quoted. When you make 10 million cars a year, those 80 Euros quickly turn into real money.

    In 2006, the secret committees agreed to do something about the tanks and the expense, and in 2008, something was done. “After several meetings, telephone calls, and emails, Daimler, Audi, BMW, and VW agreed in September 2008 on an 8 liter tank for all vehicles.”

    The trouble was: if the nasty NOx is properly neutralized, that 8 liter tank did last for not more than 3,700 miles. To last the usual 10,000 miles between oil changes, “a tank of at least 19 liters” would be needed, Der Spiegel quoted a document authored by Audi. The document noted that “Daimler, VW, and BMW concur.”

    A few years later came stricter regulations both in Europe, and the U.S. , requiring more AdBlue. “Nobody had the obvious idea to mount bigger AdBlue tanks,” notes the report. Just the opposite happened: Audi warned against an “arms race of tank sizes, which we should continue to avoid.”"

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/bertel...el-conspiracy-fresh-report-says/#270e720d7ce8
     
  15. DrFeelgood

    DrFeelgood MB Club Veteran

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    Unlikely.

    The consumer will still have a guaranteed value, it's the finance co who will feel the pinch, decrease future balloon values and slow down the manufacturer's growth plans.
     
  16. OP
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    nick mercedes

    nick mercedes MB Club Veteran

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    Aren't the payments and deposit tied to the GFV?

    And besides most people with PCPs claim to be minted enough to pay the balloon and end up with the car, and are doing it for clever financial reasons, rather than the fact they're potless.
     
  17. gIzzE

    gIzzE MB Club Veteran

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    I think most people do PCP as they know exactly what the car will cost over the period they want it for. There is no unknown.

    You know how much deposit, you know how much it costs each month.

    The ones on PCP will be fine, cash buyers could well be proper ****ed.
     
  18. markjay

    markjay MB Club Veteran

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    This is valid, but only when you also have a guaranteed future value. Otherwise its a great way of managing your cash flow, but it won't actually tell way what the car is going to cost you.
     
  19. gIzzE

    gIzzE MB Club Veteran

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    All PCPs have a GFV (well now called 'final payment' or 'ballon') that is what makes it a PCP.

    Of course there are also 'Balanced Leased Payments' or 'Hire Purchase' or 'Contract hire' etc too, where the ballon is not guaranteed, but they are not PCP.

    How will it not tell you what the car is going to cost you?

    You have a deposit, monthlies and then a final payment if you want to keep the car.
    It really couldn't be any simpler.

    Guaranteed Final Value is not used any more in a consumer agreement.
    It actually meant there is a 'Final Value' at the end of the car that is to be paid if you want to keep the car, however if the market value is lower than that we also 'guarantee' we will buy it from you for that same value.
    The problem is, it was thought some people may think that is the amount they would get given when they handed the car back at the end of the term.

    We always have to make sure we take into account the countries dumbest. :D
     
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2017
  20. Lennox

    Lennox Hardcore MB Enthusiast

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    Yes!!!! I had a chap come in off the back of a 2 year 'Ford Options' and asked for his £5,000 in cash. To say he was unhappy was a complete understatement!!! Lol

    How he thought he got to return a car he had used for 2 years and pretty much get his cash back!! I initially think he though he got to keep the car too!!! But he coughed over that one. We did have to order him, his wife and kids plus their shopping a taxi!!!!



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