Glasgow LEZ

[markjay]

Hi , If buses , all commercial vehicles and trains had turn of their engines when stationary it would be a start to reduce emissions levels.

Good idea, Start/Stop function that cannot be disabled by the driver. At least until all commercial vehicles and trains are fully running on electricity.

 

[Dryce]

My personal view regarding investment in railways, is that there should be no limit - yes, you heard it right

When the London Underground started operating in 1863, the cost was massive and no one could have calculated at the time the increases in population and traffic (albeit horse-drawn carriages at the time) over the next 150 years.

Back in 1863 there were no cars or buses or trams.

And in the early 1990s there was no internet to make communication when WFH so flexible.

So the value of rail is mixed.

Part of the problem with rail is that it is not cheap and is highly subsidised and is not a universal service. Whole regions have poor rail connectivity. Cities like London and Glasgow have extensive suburban networks and underground. Other cities such as Edinburgh or Belfast do not have much of a suburban network and may have limited connection to the main rail network.

I think HS2 is a travesty. Not because it is a rail investment but because it focuses such a huge amount of money on just one particular aspect of the rail network.

Worse for the UK as a whole is that massive and disproportionate public transport investment can be justified on Crossrail and HS2 because they connect to London and London carries such economic gravity on the UK that any over priced project can be justified because of the GVA calculations can always make it look favourable.

 

[m80]

I don’t think anyone would agree that building more roads would be the answer.

But we have an ever increasing population, and not only from child birth that would at least give few years to plan for infrastructure needs.
I have notice a house building epidemic in the UK, likely other countries too. Each new estate needs roundabouts, traffic lights, and their own road network.

All this loads the existing roads that are already over loaded. Outside of London with the tube network it's only roads that can carry the burden. As said it 'aint just cars but buses, taxis, delivery vans / wagons.....
Trains have limited delivery options.

Most must have noticed the increased instance of road works. Some is due to the years of neglect while trying to reduce national spending, but the increased usage has to be a major contribution to the wear. Needing new gas / sewer mains and such for the additional population can't help.

If we largely stick with our present road network the using of it will become increasingly intolerable.
W/o alternative methods to get people and goods around our economy, our standard of living will suffer. Grotty Nofunberg doesn't care about that, but the real world people do.

 

[Dryce]

Part of the problem is politicians look at what might work in London and advise the rest of the UK it will work for them to. But it never does. Sunak had the opportunity use public transport last week when he visited Blackpool and the North of England and experience it for himself. Instead, he flew there and back, a practise he seems well versed in, what does that tell you.

Anywhere north of Preston in the UK can feel very disproportionately remote from London. And Preston is only a bit over half way from London to Glasgow or Edinburgh - in practical terms Belfast, Dundee, and Aberdeen are a good deal further. Newcastle may not be so far north but also feels disproportionately distant from the south.

 

[markjay]

...Part of the problem with rail is that it is not cheap and is highly subsidised and is not a universal service. Whole regions have poor rail connectivity. Cities like London and Glasgow have extensive suburban networks and underground. Other cities such as Edinburgh or Belfast do not have much of a suburban network and may have limited connection to the main rail network....

The fact that some regions are poorly served by rail, only means that we need to increase the investment in the railways in those regions.

Typically, there's no business case for infrastructure projects for commercial companies, i.e. the investment is far too high to allow just one investor to achieve ROI. The financial benefits from infrastructure projects are usually distributed along may sectors of the economy, which is why the only way to do this is via public money, where the ROI for the government is via taxation from increased business activity (income tax and NI from employees, corporation tax from companies, and VAT on goods and services).

BTW, Edinburgh now has a tram, and it is being extended.

 

[HB]

I agree, however I do have a (highly controversial) point to add.

One positive side-effect of the choking of private cars traffic on London's roads via bus lanes, cycle lanes, and various traffic restrictions, is that hopefully eventually driving through London will become so slow that those who don't really need to use their private cars, will (finally) revert to using public transport.

The other way of achieving this, is by road charging schemes (and we already have the London Congestion Charge).

Neither are particularly appealing to motorists. However, our streets and roads have limited capacity... we simply must make drivers understand that driving through town isn't the most convenient or cheapest option.

(I did say my view is controversial)

Mark whilst trying to force people onto public transportation is one of the end games, a lot people who have a car will want to use them above public transport nearly every time.

 

[st13phil]

I think HS2 is a travesty. Not because it is a rail investment but because it focuses such a huge amount of money on just one particular aspect of the rail network.

If only someone had drawn attention to it being a disastrous, money-pit, political vanity project before it was started?

Oh, hang on...

 

[markjay]

Mark whilst trying to force people onto public transportation is one of the end games, a lot people who have a car will want to use them above public transport nearly every time.

So how do we mitigate this? Road charging and congestion charging are unpopular options, and banning private cars from city centres even more so. The problem isn't going to go away, the population is growing, and car ownership is growing.

 

[Dryce]

The fact that some regions are poorly served by rail, only means that we need to increase the investment in the railways in those regions.

Except that is just not happening. Shaving 10 minutes off the already fast services in the southern half of country at very great cost takes precendence over the other regions.

BTW, Edinburgh now has a tram, and it is being extended.

Ahhhh yesssss. The Edinburgh trams.

Slower to / from the airport than the bus.​

​

Disruptive to road transport in the centre​

​

Not included in the free transport for people from outside the area.​

​

Only part built - with massive disruption during construction - and a large cost overrun.​

​

Some nasty cycle accidents.​

And all that in a city that had a very good bus service. Which the tram competes with.

And then there's the white elephant 'Edinburgh Gateway' station (the strategy of 'build it and they will come' perhaps),

And the threat of more disruption with plans to complete (yes complete at additional cost over and above the original additional cost) the line out to Leith.

( I would add that I rather like using the tram in Edinburgh - I just don't think it was/is a good use of money but a vanity project that was justified by post-devolution-Edinburgh in the same way that London can justify projects. )

 

[Dryce]

So how do we mitigate this? Road charging and congestion charging are unpopular options, and banning private cars from city centres even more so. The problem isn't going to go away, the population is growing, and car ownership is growing.

Well one might think about stopping the population from growing .....

That starts to cap the total of the pre-capita stress on transport and space resources.

Then there is public transport. Innovate. Rail is just too expensive. So find ways of making it competitive, Make long distance coaches nicer. Start looking at extending local rail network - not just big projects - look at light rail and battery powered short distance units on some routes - allow diesel if that's what is practical. Cut the dogma.

Actually encourage cycling. I've hammered on before about this - add regulation (stick) which is offset by investment in proper safe dedicated routes and infrastructure (big carrot). Think about putting in bicycle lifts/elevators for hills. Encourage e-bikes (again with proper regulation and enforcement).

Start looking at taxing cars by weight and size. Current popular EVs are big lumps - coerce the market to offer affordable small EVs and nurture their use in urban environments by charging congestion charge based on size / occupancy. Don't be scared to enforce size / occupancy rules manually with actual toll style gates with people to enforce entry and penalties. Always offer some sort of positive to those in the lower socio-economic levels and not just to those who can afford modern 30K+ EVs.

 

[rf065]

Ahhhh yesssss. The Edinburgh trams.

Slower to / from the airport than the bus.​

​

Disruptive to road transport in the centre​

​

Not included in the free transport for people from outside the area.​

​

Only part built - with massive disruption during construction - and a large cost overrun.​

​

​

I remember it all well, the company I was with at the time relocated their headquarters to the new industrial estate out in the sticks by Newbridge.
As a complete new building on a new industrial estate they fell for all the pie in the sky promises that it would be served by the new tram system, so there was no need for a large car park.
Fast forward a couple of years and the tram idea was scrapped, no longer would it reach this far. So now we have hundreds of employees using their car to go to work and having nowhere to park once they get there.
HS2 anyone?

 

[rf065]

Start looking at taxing cars by weight and size.

They could also start looking at motorcycles, I'm charged £93 per year where smaller cars are between £0 - £20 a year. Where's the logic in that other than tax revenue purposes.

 

[markjay]

I remember it all well, the company I was with at the time relocated their headquarters to the new industrial estate out in the sticks by Newbridge.
As a complete new building on a new industrial estate they fell for all the pie in the sky promises that it would be served by the new tram system, so there was no need for a large car park.
Fast forward a couple of years and the tram idea was scrapped, no longer would it reach this far. So now we have hundreds of employees using their car to go to work and having nowhere to park once they get there.
HS2 anyone?

Clearly, the tram idea should not have been scrapped. Lack of investment in infrastructure will always come back and bite us.

 

[markjay]

Well one might think about stopping the population from growing .....

That starts to cap the total of the pre-capita stress on transport and space resources.

Then there is public transport. Innovate. Rail is just too expensive. So find ways of making it competitive, Make long distance coaches nicer. Start looking at extending local rail network - not just big projects - look at light rail and battery powered short distance units on some routes - allow diesel if that's what is practical. Cut the dogma.

Actually encourage cycling. I've hammered on before about this - add regulation (stick) which is offset by investment in proper safe dedicated routes and infrastructure (big carrot). Think about putting in bicycle lifts/elevators for hills. Encourage e-bikes (again with proper regulation and enforcement).

Start looking at taxing cars by weight and size. Current popular EVs are big lumps - coerce the market to offer affordable small EVs and nurture their use in urban environments by charging congestion charge based on size / occupancy. Don't be scared to enforce size / occupancy rules manually with actual toll style gates with people to enforce entry and penalties. Always offer some sort of positive to those in the lower socio-economic levels and not just to those who can afford modern 30K+ EVs.

There's also the issue of the value of human lives... rail is by far the safest mode of travel in the UK (globally it's flying, but this is because of low safety standards for railways in developing countries)

 

[KennyN]

So now we have hundreds of employees using their car to go to work and having nowhere to park once they get there.
HS2 anyone?

Same with the QE hospital in Govan , minimal parking for the staff so loads of then park in the street outside the Volvo / Daily Record building in Cardonald and walk to the hospital.

Why on earth did they build a new "super hospital" when most of the surrounding roads are gridlock at certain times of the day ?

K

 

[Dickster]

People who travel by car instead of using public transport are 'the poorest'?

Most households in the uk own at least one car don’t ya know

The multi-car society: is the UK still dependent on the car?| LV=

Car ownership is at an all-time high in the UK but is that trend about to change? Leon Poultney takes a look...

www.lv.com

 

[markjay]

Most households in the uk own at least one car don’t ya know

The multi-car society: is the UK still dependent on the car?| LV=

Car ownership is at an all-time high in the UK but is that trend about to change? Leon Poultney takes a look...

www.lv.com

It's not about car ownership, it's about how the car is used. The daily travel cap in London for zones 1-9 is £8.90. The Congestion Charge is £15.00. Anyone who chooses the car over public transport, isn't one if 'the poorest'. Not in my book, anyway.

 

[LTD]

How many people here that are eulogising about public transport use it day in and day out ?

I use it day in and day out as I made a decision to sell my car due to Glasgow City Council enforcing on street parking near my work that would cost me £3k per year to park - and I would need to move my car twice a day into a different zone which is not acceptable to my work

Benefit - cheaper overall

Detriments - I have to leave earlier and get back later. Less personal safety. More open to communicable disease (remember COVID ???). Travel not guaranteed due to service issues, strikes etc.

Aye, public transport is fantastic. NOT

 

[st13phil]

Detriments - I have to leave earlier and get back later. Less personal safety. More open to communicable disease (remember COVID ???). Travel not guaranteed due to service issues, strikes etc.

^ This is the stuff the public transport proponents gloss over.

The reality is that relying on others to deliver will always be second best to relying on oneself.

 

[190]

Interesting thread. I'm just glad that I so rarely drive into a city these days. The last time was into York which we visit regularly and it was both expensive and an absolute nightmare. That prompted me to use the bus on the next occasion (markJay will be impressed) and I have to admit it was much less stressful if no quicker. Rather than pay in future I thought we would apply for pensioners free bus passes. We used the bus passes for the first time this week to travel 4 miles into Macclesfield although I have to admit it was only because they expire if not used. So there we were, two pensioners on a bus - together with 20 odd other pensioners. I noted that only one person actually paid a fare. Even the bus driver was pensioner. He looked older than me but I gave him full marks for his fast pace of driving, he had to stop for a few minutes at one point to get himself back on timetable.

The pity is that was the only bus I can make use of locally. I'm 8 miles from the airport but there is no Bus, 16 miles from Manchester and there is no bus. Public transport in a semi rural area is kind of fun as an experiment when you are retired and have nothing better to do but it's utterly impractical for regular use, and I don't believe it will ever be if the the only customers are pensioners with a free pass.