Halogen Lighting Help Please

[Howard]

Hi gang,

I know there's a few electricians (and at least one electrical shop owner ) who are members , so could i ask some advice please .....

My pals restaurant is being refurbished , and we need some spot lights ( he has asked me to sort this out for him as we are a bit short of cash )

Basically we need some lights like in the picture below , that can be angled pretty much anywhere and are foolproof for idiot waiters to change without losing bits ....

However , the only ones i can find have a maximum cable run of 5 metres , i am going to need about 12 to 15 metres , with approximately 10 lights on it (either 20w 12v or 35w 12v) I can change the transformer if the one supplied is not up to it .....

They have to be wire lights like this because they are being suspended from a polycarbonate roof and have to stand off so that the heat doesn't damage it. So i'm guessing that they would have stand off posts too , like the ones in the bottom picture ...

Any ideas on where i can get these from with a long enough cable run ?

 

[Flash]

Try GFE... www.gfegroup.com

 

[Iain]

Howard.
Where are you based?

 

[Howard]

Teddington SW London

 

[Iain]

You could also try these people.
www.tlc-direct.co.uk
They have branches all over and have an online stock and part list.

 

[Iain]

Merton branch isn't to bad then!

 

[Howard]

Cheers Iain ....

Thats a fine set of glasses you have there !!

 

[guydewdney]

Just buy a longer wire....

I had a set of ikea lights in my last last place, I just extended the cables by buying a nice long cable of the same dimensions - often fat speaker cable is right (and available in interesting colours....)

the top ones are available from ikea..

 

[Howard]

Thats what i thought Guy .....

But being an electrical idiot , i didn't know if there was some reason why you couldn't extend the wires ...... voltage loss , resistance or whatever ....

But thought i'd sound really dumb if i asked it

Thats fine then , Ikea it is ..... cheap too ..... wonder if i'll have to replace them evey 5 minutes

Ok, next dumb question , where can i buy clear wire with a silver colured inside ? that will carry upto 400w at 12v ?

 

[Iain]

No you wouldn't be dumb Howard. You will get voltage drop on your extended lines,which will lead to premature breakdown of the transformer.

 

[Howard]

How about if i used an oversize transformer ?

So if there was say 350w of load putting a 500w transformer on ? would that help ?

cheers for all the advice so far ..... thats why this forum is so good , there is always someone knowledgeable about whatever you need to know !! (if that makes sense )

 

[guydewdney]

Use the fattest wire you can get into the IDC (Insulation Displacement Connector) of the light. Then you wont have a drop in voltage worth talking about. Go to maplin or a boy racer audio shop...

The best transformer is the one set for the wattage you use... You wont blow up the transformer - but if you use undersize wire, you might blow bulbs (as halogens must run at full voltage to have a long life). Cheap transformers (like ikea ones) have no regulation, and so if you run 1 x 20watt bulb on a 200w transformer, it will over voltage a bit, and kill the bulb quickly. if you run 300w of bulb on a 200w transformer, it will drop to 10 volts, and the bulbs will blow (again)

my experiance was thet you should buy brand name (osram for example) bulbs - not the rubbish ikea sell (or b&q for that matter) - and buy in bulk, online.

 

[grober]

Howard,not wishing to put a damper on your efforts to help your friend but I should point out that since you are talking about electrical wiring in a restaurant- a business establishment where members of the general public will be present- you are probably in breach of current building regulations if you attempt this work yourself. http://www.iee.org/Publish/WireRegs/WiringMatters/index.cfm
In the event of an accident or fire ( fires are not unknown in restaurants! ) you may find the HSE will be investigating who did the install work. At worst your friends insurance company may void any cover he has. I would check on the building regs first before you start. Maybe someone who is more familiar with the Building Regs in England and Wales can say for sure??

 

[Dieselman]

I agree that you MAY be breaching "part P" of the building regs. If you do perform this work first check whether Part P covers the non kitchen area of a commercial premises and if it does the installation will require signing off by a registered tester before it can be commissioned.

Also due to the fact that this is a commercial property and you will be paid for the work you really could do with some public liability insurance.

Personally I wouldn't use halogen reflector lamps at all, for two reasons, one they waste a lot of electricity so are costly to run and two they produce a lot of heat.
I would use 240v compact flourescent reflector lamps. These have a rating of 15,000hrs instead of 1000hrs so wont require changing and use only 20% of the power whilst producing very little heat.
I use Megaman lamps but there are others available now.

Do the job in 240v and get it checked then you're covered.

 

[Howard]

I should have pointed out at the start that i would only be sourcing the kit ...

I will not wiring it up myself, as my electrical prowess is matched only by my website destruction prowess (sorry IBW ) ....

I do pretty much all of the maintenance (painting, decorating etc) within the restaurant , but steer clear of the electrics and plumbing ...

Thanks for the advice and the heads up on the building regs ...

 

[guydewdney]

scareily I worked out that using halogens vs low energy lights would cost me 115 quid a year more (for 9 lights, on a lot).... think about it - try to get GU10 low energy ones instead - makes a hell of a lot more difference than you think:-

15p/kwh (roughly in london)
10 lights @ 50 watts each on for 12 hours (12 / 1pm to 12 / 1am)
360 days
500 watts x 12 x 360 = 2160,000 watt hours - 2160 Kwh = £324

10 lights @ 7 watts
70 watts x 12 x 360 = 302.4Kwh = £45.36

Difference = 278.64 PER YEAR! Plus, the added cost of replacement....

 

[Dieselman]

Guy, that's why all my lamps are low energy. Tha payback period is about 1000hrs for standard lamps and more for these reflector GU10.

Approximately half a domeastic electricity cost is used on lighting so much bigger savings can be made changing the bulbs than changing supplier.

GU10

R50

 

[Howard]

GU10's are 50w halogen aren't they ?

I've got GU10's in my bathroom , kitchen and hallway .....

Low energy just looks so much like fluorescent though , not very stylish ....

 

[Dieselman]

GU10's are 50w halogen aren't they ?

I've got GU10's in my bathroom , kitchen and hallway .....

Low energy just looks so much like fluorescent though , not very stylish ....

You can't have exposed halogen in the bathroom anyway so the appearance will be very similar.

 

[marcos]

Part P will not cover an establishment where the general public go you will need a full inspection and test report/installation certificate. Part P only covers domestic propertys and is a complete joke in the industry.

I would also be very carefull about putting this type of fitting into a restaurant. We recently wired a bank in Bishopsgate and the electrical designer had specified a similair type of fitting for use in the foyer. The building inspector took one look and asked if someone was trying to take the p***. They all had to be changed for an enclosed hanging track light system.

Be carefull what you install.