Has anyone here gone (second hand) EV?

[Londonscottish]

Put the old Clio in for an MOT today and it failed on a few things which prompted the old discussion with the Mrs as to what to replace it with.

For its intended use an EV theoretically makes sense. 2k or less per year, all urban journeys, the vast majority of which are 1-3 miles. And we've got a drive with a couple of slow sockets. And space for a fast charger.

£8k gets you into a 5 year old Zoe on 10k miles. If I got this rather than a cheap petrol runabout I'd have to finance some of it (against my instincts....) but I get the difference back in reduced running costs (petrol, RFL & maintenance).

But the big unknown is batteries. If I had a cheap petrol it would potentially go on and on and on. The Clio, for example, is nearly 20 and still bombs around the city as its makers intended.

With an £8k Zoe if the batteries are toast at 10 years then it's scrap.

Anyone else gone down this route? And do the batteries actually fail or just become less efficient? If so, does it actually matter? If the range dropped 20% I wouldn't car as it would still do well over 100 miles which is 2 week's use.

Any thoughts?

 

[markjay]

I would not want to own an EV that does not have manufacturer's warranty.....

Said that, Hybrids have been around for a long time, and their second hand market seems fine, do possibly my concerns are unfounded.

 

[Benzmanc]

EV's with knackered batteries are not all doom and gloom, you can replace the battery in a leaf for £2k. Early cars had different chemistry and suffered from premature degradation. For example a Tesla Model S is expected to retain 80% capacity at 500k miles. The Renault ZOE is a good idea as i can't really be fast charged i.e over 43kw dc which is what kills batteries prematurely


connection type Power 50% Charge Time 80% Charge Time 100% Charge Time
Quick Charger 43 kW (3x62A) 40 Minutes 54 minutes 1 hours 45 minutes
Public Charger 22 kW (3x32A) 40 minutes 54 minutes 1 hours 45 minutes
11 kW (3x16A) 40 minutes 1 hours 40 minutes 2 hours 55 minutes
Home Wallbox 7,4 kW (32A) 1 hours 55 minutes 3 hours 3 minutes 4 hours
Domestic Socket 2,3 kW (10A) 7 hours 11 hours 30 minutes 13 hours 30 minutes

 

[grober]

I would suggest you ask in a more EV oriented forum as most EV discussions HERE end up with "not untill they prise my V8 from my cold dead hands" type posts. Renault have recently stopped offering their battery leasing scheme citing a strengthened residual car value - but might be because it was costing them too much money!
Renault ends battery leasing for electric Zoe | Autocar
there's also this
http://myrenaultzoe.com/index.php/2019/12/electric-renault-zoe-uks-fastest-selling-used-car/
I've hear new battery packs are around £4.5K but the field is changing so rapidly that that figure may change. EVs are becoming more sought after as urban runabouts so its possibly just a question of when to dip your toe in the market?

 

[jjabbot]

We've just gone ev, sold my much loved c250cgi, for a bmw i3. 2 years old, with 6 years, or 90k miles of manufacturerers warranty on the battery remaining. Batteries don't drop off a cliff, they degrade slowly, but bmw are known for very good battery management systems. This i3 is actually our second, after my partner got one just four months ago. They are such nice cars to drive, with one pedal driving possible due to regenerative braking.

PS, if anyone wants an immaculate, low mileage c250cgi, I part exed it, and can see its for sale via a trader on auto trader. 26k miles, 2 owners, full MB history, 200bhp! (I'm not on commission!)

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[st13phil]

I seem to remember @Doodle of this parish ran a Zoe for three years and was less than impressed with a number of aspects of the car. Perhaps he can offer some real-world ownership experiences?

 

[Londonscottish]

I would not want to own an EV that does not have manufacturer's warranty.....

Said that, Hybrids have been around for a long time, and their second hand market seems fine, do possibly my concerns are unfounded.

Like you, I really don't know what to think.

 

[Londonscottish]

We've just gone ev, sold my much loved c250cgi, for a bmw i3. 2 years old, with 6 years, or 90k miles of manufacturerers warranty on the battery remaining. Batteries don't drop off a cliff, they degrade slowly, but bmw are known for very good battery management systems. This i3 is actually our second, after my partner got one just four months ago. They are such nice cars to drive, with one pedal driving possible due to regenerative braking.

PS, if anyone wants an immaculate, low mileage c250cgi, I part exed it, and can see its for sale via a trader on auto trader. 26k miles, 2 owners, full MB history, 200bhp! (I'm not on commission!)

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I'm sold on the i3. One of my mates has one and absolutely loves it. And he's a real petrol head with a small fleet of 70's, 80's and 90's German metal.

But I'm not in the price backed of having one of those new or new-ish and therefore under warranty and so on.

 

[markjay]

I'm sold on the i3. One of my mates has one and absolutely loves it. And he's a real petrol head with a small fleet of 70's, 80's and 90's German metal.

But I'm not in the price backed of having one of those new or new-ish and therefore under warranty and so on.

The i3 has propriety tyres... only available from BMW, and not always in stock (or so I was told by an i3 owner).

 

[jjabbot]

They are unique, but black circles etc do them. Not cheap, but they can last well, just depends if you use all the acceleration all the time!

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[Londonscottish]

They are unique, but black circles etc do them. Not cheap, but they can last well, just depends if you use all the acceleration all the time!

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Actually that reminds me of another petrolhead who absolutely loves his i3 and he's had all sorts including an SL55 back in the day and more recently a 430 Scuderia.

People do rave about them.

The only pure EV car I've been in was a Mitsubishi MieV and much to my surprise I really liked how that went. It's also super-narrow and therefore very fast across London.

The other day I was in my first electric black cab and that was an absolute revelation compared to the rattly old TX4's.

 

[markjay]

They are unique, but black circles etc do them. Not cheap, but they can last well, just depends if you use all the acceleration all the time!

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He had a puncture... car was off the road for 2 weeks.

 

[grober]

I would not want to own an EV that does not have manufacturer's warranty.....
Said that, Hybrids have been around for a long time, and their second hand market seems fine, do possibly my concerns are unfounded.

Leaving the main propulsion batteries aside for a moment, the simplicity of the power train with no engine, clutch gearbox, cooling system, fuel system, exhaust, emission controls etc to go wrong or service should in theory offer increased longevity in comparison to IC - I have heard no reports of electric motor or control electronic failures for example altho some battery pack coolant systems might prove to be vulnerable in the longer term depending on model? Regenerative braking may also increase brake pad life- another routine service item.

 

[markjay]

Leaving the main propulsion batteries aside for a moment, the simplicity of the power train with no engine, gearbox, cooling system, fuel system, exhaust, emission controls etc to go wrong or service should in theory offer increased longevity in comparison to IC - I have heard no reports of electric motor or control electronic failures for example altho some battery pack coolant systems might prove to be vulnerable in the longer term depending on model? Regenerative braking may also increase brake pad life- another routine service item.

My point is that when it comes to traditional car systems, there's plenty of supply of aftermarket parts, second-hand or reconditioned parts, and people who know how to fit and fix them.

In contrast, the electric and electronic modules on an EV are likely to be a dealer-only job, with no competition - EV owners are a captive audience.

 

[jjabbot]

Leaving the main propulsion batteries aside for a moment, the simplicity of the power train with no engine, clutch gearbox, cooling system, fuel system, exhaust, emission controls etc to go wrong or service should in theory offer increased longevity in comparison to IC - I have heard no reports of electric motor or control electronic failures for example altho some battery pack coolant systems might prove to be vulnerable in the longer term depending on model? Regenerative braking may also increase brake pad life- another routine service item.

Yes, that appears to be the gist! Drove home the other day in a spirited fashion, about 100 miles,in my i3. When I parked I touched my brake discs, they were cold! And my 2013 w204 c250, though fully maintained, had the MB petrol engine with the potential timing chain issues?! And the i3 is carbon fibre and aluminium, so no rust to contend with (apart from the brake discs!).

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[jjabbot]

My point is that when it comes to traditional car systems, there's plenty of supply of aftermarket parts, second-hand or reconditioned parts, and people who know how to fit and fix them.

In contrast, the electric and electronic modules on an EV are likely to be a dealer-only job, with no competition - EV owners are a captive audience.

Not quite true, there are high voltage trained independent garages out there, happy to top up your washer fluid and change brake fluid when you need it done. After 5 years on the market I don't think there are lots of things that need sorting at servicing /maintenance. Every other year servicing according to bmw for the i3. In my opinion it is the electronics that will be the head ache in the future!

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[grober]

My point is that when it comes to traditional car systems, there's plenty of supply of aftermarket parts, second-hand or reconditioned parts, and people who know how to fit and fix them.

In contrast, the electric and electronic modules on an EV are likely to be a dealer-only job, with no competition - EV owners are a captive audience.

Point taken , but as the number of these vehicles increases a similar " EV aftermarket " for parts and servicing support is likely evolve. And- you are working on the assumption that EV will have similar component failure rates and servicing costs to IC vehicles. - that remains to be determined.

 

[grober]

this might be worth a look
Renault ZOE
AND
Zoe service and repair costs
AND
Annual service advice for Renault Zoe

 

[grober]

USEFUL VIDEO-- seems to give the impression that if the battery lease deal is in place it continues--- no new deals obviously but still?

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[Doodle]

£8k for a 5yo Zoe is massively overpriced. The GFV on mine at 3 years was £6k, and it wasn't even worth that. There were many cases of owners being offered significant deals by RCI to keep the car.

The majority of Zoe were sold on a battery lease arrangement, rather than outright ownership. The battery ownership cars were badged Zoe-i (and would be worth more, perhaps up to your 8k sum) but they are very rare.

RCI really dropped the ball here and simply didn't think the entire arrangement through, first "owners" were fine but there was no provision whatsoever for 2nd/3rd owner. At the time I got mine, the battery was covered for 8 years - however, the longest lease you could get at the time was 5 years (4 + an additional year on request). I'm sure this has now been dealt with but I'm not entirely sure what the arrangement is. I'd not want to be paying "full price" lease on a 5 year old battery. It seems RCI have finally seen sense on this crazy arrangement, and all Zoes as of last month are sold as battery ownership.

In terms of the car itself, it's surprisingly spacious and easy to drive, and very nippy round town. The underpinnings are mostly Clio, but there's a lot of weight so the ride can be rather choppy - I suspect they've upped the spring rate to support the extra load of the battery pack and not sorted the damping. Basic servicing is minimal - IIRC my 2 yearly services were about £80 each, basically checking the car over and changing the pollen filter. However, the electrical system will generally require a visit to Renault, it's not something your independent garage (even if EV trained) is going to be able to deal with. This is also where things fall down.

To work on an EV, you need multiple skill disciplines and the dealer networks still aren't really up to speed on this (with the exception of perhaps Tesla). As well as your normal technician skills (including the EV training so you don't fry yourself) to deal with the "normal" car stuff, troubleshooting needs electrical, electronic and software engineering experience on top of that. It's a big ask.

As a result I had issues that never actually got sorted when I owned the car, either because the garage couldn't figure it out, or it didn't get any traction when escalated to head office. I had a complete electronic failure on the traction system early in the 2nd year (big amber warning lights) and ended up without the car for a month. By the time I'd owned it for just over 2 years, it had spent 2 months total in the workshop, and the battery was starting to feel and look tired, range was noticeably limited (down to 70-80 miles in winter) and it didn't feel as spritely to drive. I stopped using the car, buying the A8 instead and ended up handing the car back under VT shortly afterwards.

For your usage, I would advise against it unless you can find one of the non-lease models. The leasing doesn't suit the mileage you're looking to do. If you can find a Zoe-i it becomes more viable, but unless you're willing to stump up for visiting the main dealer for any issues you may be better off with another little petrol runabout.