Have VAG been caught cheating again

[190]

Petrol engines this time that mysteriously reduce emissions under certain conditions.

From German magazine

 

[Neiltodd]

Will be watching this!

 

[zipdip]

Naughty Vaggers

 

[clk208]

Wouldn’t surprise me, every recent VAG I’ve known about as friends or family members cars have been utter crap. The worst of all being an A4 owned by my friend, serviced meticulously and probably £5k of parts over the last few years but still puts out more smoke than a coal fired power station and frequently clogs up on its own emissions.

 

[Big Janner]

It makes you wonder.
Surely they have more sense

 

[W1ghty]

. I have no words

 

[190]

If I was a VAG executive in the US I think I'd get on a plane home to Germany before they throw me in jail.

 

[Steveml63]

Petrol engines this time that mysteriously reduce emissions under certain conditions.

From German magazine

It will be very interesting to see how this one develops!!

 

[GeeJayW]

Wouldn’t surprise me...

Wouldn't surprise me either. It also wouldn't surprise me if other manufacturers do the same. That said, even without cycle beating or cheating, the exhaust emissions from cars vary depending on how they are operated and under what conditions.

The main problem with all of this was the continued adoption of test cycles that were unrepresentative of typical 'real world' driving. Another issue is that there is no official definition of what constitutes real world driving or how real world exhaust emissions should be measured.

This is changing with the new world harmonised cycle, but so called real world driving is still a variable feast.

 

[clk208]

Wouldn't surprise me either. It also wouldn't surprise me if other manufacturers do the same. That said, even without cycle beating or cheating, the exhaust emissions from cars vary depending on how they are operated and under what conditions.

The main problem with all of this was the continued adoption of test cycles that were unrepresentative of typical 'real world' driving. Another issue is that there is no official definition of what constitutes real world driving or how real world exhaust emissions should be measured.

This is changing with the new world harmonised cycle, but so called real world driving is still a variable feast.

Perhaps they should be tested at wide open throttle up a large incline after not being serviced for the equivalent of a few years as many owners will run them in real life.

 

[Big Janner]

Perhaps they should be tested at wide open throttle up a large incline after not being serviced for the equivalent of a few years as many owners will run them in real life.

Please, please
Real life?
That would decimate the industry and create a taxation vacuum

Lets stick to the unreasonable and unrealistic if we can, much easier all round

 

[GeeJayW]

Please, please
Real life?
That would decimate the industry and create a taxation vacuum

Lets stick to the unreasonable and unrealistic if we can, much easier all round

There's nothing easy about emissions testing and nothing easy about calibrating engines to operate well for customers and at the same time meet emissions limits that have been derived from data generated using an unrealistically light driving cycle.

 

[GeeJayW]

Perhaps they should be tested at wide open throttle up a large incline after not being serviced for the equivalent of a few years as many owners will run them in real life.

You'd be surprised how little operation time is carried out a full load in real driving.

 

[Big Janner]

There's nothing easy about emissions testing and nothing easy about calibrating engines to operate well for customers and at the same time meet emissions limits that have been derived from data generated using an unrealistically light driving cycle.

As I say, unreasonable and unrealistic.
If it was easy to make cars that meet the current emissions criteria, it would be done.
It's easier and cheaper to set up the cars ecu to cheat, so, they are set up to cheat . . . .simplz

 

[GeeJayW]

As I say, unreasonable and unrealistic.
If it was easy to make cars that meet the current emissions criteria, it would be done.
It's easier and cheaper to set up the cars ecu to cheat, so, they are set up to cheat . . . .simplz

You clearly know a lot about this... thanks for your insight.

 

[190]

Manufacturers have been carefully tuning engines to meet emissions limits since the days of carburettors which went lean in the late 70's/early 80's causing minor flat spots as a result. The difference these days is the underhand way in which the test cycle is detected and emissions reduced solely for the purpose of the test. If manufacturers are still doing this they should expect to get the book thrown at them. It's not as if they are at their strongest financially after Covid so to continue cheating could be a death wish which takes some of them under.

 

[GeeJayW]

Manufacturers have been carefully tuning engines to meet emissions limits since the days of carburettors which went lean in the late 70's/early 80's causing minor flat spots as a result. The difference these days is the underhand way in which the test cycle is detected and emissions reduced solely for the purpose of the test. If manufacturers are still doing this they should expect to get the book thrown at them. It's not as if they are at their strongest financially after Covid so to continue cheating could be a death wish which takes some of them under.

Customers want cars that have decent performance. Emissions regulations are a very big push in the other direction. I do agree that the OEMs should not use cycle beating algorithms and should be penalised if they do.

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

I don’t think anyone in the industry - from any manufacturer - was surprised that maps were optimised for the test cycle. It’s been many, many years since I was close to this but it was even a thing back then.

Give an engineer a problem and they will find a way to solve it. If the problem is to perform optimally in a pre-defined test, then they’ll engineer the car to do just that - it’s hardly a surprise.

I’m not even sure it was underhand, because it wasn’t a secret held amongst a very, very small group of people working for a single manufacturer. I would be surprised if any manufacturers didn’t do it.

 

[markjay]

It's the old KPIs issue.

Specify them incorrectly, and you get a product that performs fantastically when tested but does poorly in real life.

Another example is NCAP. Cars are designed today to get the highest NCAP score. But are they actually safer? Well, yes, but only if NCAP got their tests right.... there's no telling how a 5-star car will perform in a type of crash that wasn't part of the NCAP testing.

 

[190]

I’m not even sure it was underhand, because it wasn’t a secret held amongst a very, very small group of people working for a single manufacturer. I would be surprised if any manufacturers didn’t do it.

I can well believe that was the case and I always thought they were all at it including MB.

What surprises me and I do consider underhand, is that even after dieselgate they are still at it and risking financial ruin.