Help with Fire Regs building a Loft Extension

[rossyl]

Hi Guys

We are in the process of designing a loft extension and one isse that is causing us a headache is the need to have a "protected exit".

Our ground floor is open plan. We have been advised that we would need to put in a wall on the ground floor that seperated the stairs fromn the rest of the room, and the exit from the stairs to the front door.

\by doing this we would effectively ruin our downstairs.

The other option is to enclose the stairways. This is not appealing as the stairs are pretty narrow and so it will be a nightmare getting furniture up and down. Also the atairways will become dark tunnels.

So I am hoping that someone has the solution! I thought sprinklers were the solution, but apparently not.

I have thought of putting an external fire escapre from the back of the house onto the ground floor flat roof - but I imagine that will be a planning issue.

Would appreciate any help

Thanks
R

 

[DSM10000]

Hi Guys

We are in the process of designing a loft extension and one isse that is causing us a headache is the need to have a "protected exit".

Our ground floor is open plan. We have been advised that we would need to put in a wall on the ground floor that seperated the stairs fromn the rest of the room, and the exit from the stairs to the front door.

\by doing this we would effectively ruin our downstairs.

The other option is to enclose the stairways. This is not appealing as the stairs are pretty narrow and so it will be a nightmare getting furniture up and down. Also the atairways will become dark tunnels.

So I am hoping that someone has the solution! I thought sprinklers were the solution, but apparently not.

I have thought of putting an external fire escapre from the back of the house onto the ground floor flat roof - but I imagine that will be a planning issue.

Would appreciate any help

Thanks
R

Are you employing an architect to design this? if so they should be providing all of the answers and solutions.

 

[Mike Walker]

Hi Guys

We are in the process of designing a loft extension and one isse that is causing us a headache is the need to have a "protected exit".

Our ground floor is open plan. We have been advised that we would need to put in a wall on the ground floor that seperated the stairs fromn the rest of the room, and the exit from the stairs to the front door.

\by doing this we would effectively ruin our downstairs.

The other option is to enclose the stairways. This is not appealing as the stairs are pretty narrow and so it will be a nightmare getting furniture up and down. Also the atairways will become dark tunnels.

So I am hoping that someone has the solution! I thought sprinklers were the solution, but apparently not.

I have thought of putting an external fire escapre from the back of the house onto the ground floor flat roof - but I imagine that will be a planning issue.

Would appreciate any help

Thanks
R

I have a contact who will be able to assist you if required. PM me?

 

[eihtur]

Fireproof doors. And an enclosed stairwell. Think about it. A fire on the ground floor of an open plan house could be the death sentence to most upstairs.

A fire escape to the loft would suffice...but would be expensive and not necessarily aesthetically pleasing. I think you might at the very least be required to make sure your kitchen is isolated from the rest of the ground floor.

They will want to know how easily (and quickly) the occupants can exit the house...so direct exit to the front door will be a must.

But, as above, this will be your architect's responsibility.

 

[BTB 500]

Think about it. A fire on the ground floor of an open plan house could be the death sentence to most upstairs.

Wouldn't you just exit through an upstairs window, if really necessary

Very few householders go round shutting all downstairs doors at night, so IMO most houses effectively do have an open plan lower floor. Smoke detectors on landing & hall should give reasonable warning too.

 

[eihtur]

Wouldn't you just exit through an upstairs window, if really necessary

Very few householders go round shutting all downstairs doors at night, so IMO most houses effectively do have an open plan lower floor. Smoke detectors on landing & hall should give reasonable warning too.

From the third floor? Anyway...remember the bedtime routine they used to play on TV at night a long time ago?

You are right though about open doors...but the regulations cannot account for the public...but they must try.

 

[scottydee]

I was speaking to one of my customers only on Thursday about the same thing, and he said there is a new building reg that does allow you to use sprinklers - could be worth looking into.

 

[eihtur]

I was speaking to one of my customers only on Thursday about the same thing, and he said there is a new building reg that does allow you to use sprinklers - could be worth looking into.

But even buildings with sprinklers must have fire doors and containment.

 

[scottydee]

But even buildings with sprinklers must have fire doors and containment.

That's the thing - I'm sure that he said they can have sprinklers instead! ( I know it sounds wrong - maybe he was mistaken!)

 

[eihtur]

An interesting aside:

Sprinklers Required for New Welsh Private Homes. : News from MDM Publishing Ltd

 

[verytalldave]

Youe are, in effect, making your house into a 3 floor dwelling.
ALL internal doors must be changed to a suitable fire rated type and the frames must be fitted with a smoke barrier strip all round. Also, ALL doors must be fitted with automatic closers and must not be held open at any time with the likes of door wedges etc.
Its areal pain converting an existing 2 floor house into a 3 floor type. You can get round the regs a bit by saying its a normally unoccupied "hobby" room and not a bedroom. But thats totally your decision. You will also probably need to put a new floor down on the top floor. Its not a cheap process by any measure.

 

[BTB 500]

From the third floor? Anyway...remember the bedtime routine they used to play on TV at night a long time ago?

You are right though about open doors...but the regulations cannot account for the public...but they must try.

I'd certainly go out of a 3rd floor window if the choice was burning to death ... although obviously I'd prefer to avoid the situation altogether!!

It's an interesting thread - we're idly toying with the idea a loft conversion at some point, but we've removed many of the doors downstairs and replaced them with gates (because of the dogs). Sounds like this would potentially be a problem.

 

[BTB 500]

Youe are, in effect, making your house into a 3 floor dwelling.
ALL internal doors must be changed to a suitable fire rated type and the frames must be fitted with a smoke barrier strip all round. Also, ALL doors must be fitted with automatic closers and must not be held open at any time with the likes of door wedges etc.

Does that all really apply to a domestic dwelling? How would not using door wedges etc. be enforced (and who by)?!

 

[verytalldave]

Does that all really apply to a domestic dwelling? How would not using door wedges etc. be enforced (and who by)?!

Its not enforced by anyone. But if you HAD a fire and it was discovered that you had wedged or held doors open, then you might find your insurance was void.

This might be informative......................

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2005/1541/contents/made

 

[developer]

I turned our second loft into a habitable room.

The building inspector said we should fit fire doors throughout, but allowed a fire door on the loft room and mains powered/battery back up interlinked smoke detectors (heat in the kitchen) in every other room, including the original part of the house.

He wasn't looking for a fire escape window - detection, not means of escape being the logic.

16 detectors and 1 fire door later it's done.

Not cheap and disruptive for the finished part of the house, but better than fire doors throughout.

Building Control will happily advise and you need latest advice as things change regularly.

Mine was Birmingham and 2010.

 

[BTB 500]

Its not enforced by anyone. But if you HAD a fire and it was discovered that you had wedged or held doors open, then you might find your insurance was void.

This might be informative......................

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2005/1541/contents/made

But that states

Application to premises

6.—(1) This Order does not apply in relation to —
(a)domestic premises, except to the extent mentioned in article 31(10);

And 31(10) says

(10) In this article, “premises” includes domestic premises other than premises consisting of or comprised in a house which is occupied as a single private dwelling and article 27 (powers of inspectors) shall be construed accordingly.

So a house "which is occupied as a single private dwelling" is not covered by this legislation ??

 

[eihtur]

But that states

And 31(10) says

So a house "which is occupied as a single private dwelling" is not covered by this legislation ??

Sounds about right...they are mostly concerned with HMO (house of multiple occupation). To bring such a house up to spec we had to rebuild an internal wall from ground to top in 9 inches not the original 4.5 and all doors on to the stairs were fire doors with intumescent strip.

 

[Benzowner]

Normal fire doors are rated FD30(S) and self closing, in a domestic dwelling, where there is a loft conversion to extend the dwelling for the familly, the requirement is only FD20(S) and need not be self closing. By adding a third floor(loft conversion) the doors leading off the means of escape, all bedroom, lounge, kitchen doors need to be fire rated. In your case with the open plan ground floor, the underneath of the stairs will also need to be 30 minutes fire rating as well as installing a wall and door from the staircase. Even if you install a fire escape to the loft, your means of escape from the second floor could also be regarded as the stairs. I would check this out thoroughly with building control at you local council.

Fire regs was my job before retirement earlier this year.

 

[Piff]

Fire escape from 1st & 2nd floors could be via windows of sufficient size with a dedicated escape "ladder" which could be housed inside to be rolled out in the event of a fire.

As above, consult your local building regulations dept at the local council with a list of your own ideas. They will usually help you with a solution.

 

[finisterre]

Do it as you like. Building control know perfectly well that a lot of the regulations are stylistically offensive and thousands of people have refused to comply when faced with fire doors and closers. They will write a letter setting out their concerns and stating how they see the structural integrity of works completed. present that to the solicitor when you come to sell. There aren't many people that won't understand your position when it comes to buying your house.