"Hitler's Supercars"

[Stratman]

Channel 4 tonight (Sunday 26th July), a documentary looking at the rivalry between Mercedes Benz and the Nazi-funded Auto Union racing cars of the 1930s.

 

[Darrell]

Interesting that Auto Union was Nazi funded yet Hitler was seen in a Mercedes in many occasions. Both state and personal.

 

[219]

Channel 4 tonight (Sunday 26th July), a documentary looking at the rivalry between Mercedes Benz and the Nazi-funded Auto Union racing cars of the 1930s.

Both companies were Nazi funded : Hitler supported any company which demonstrated the technical superiority of Germany before the war , and gave ‘unlimited’ resources to companies which helped with the war effort.

Uhlenhaut stated this in an interview many years ago .

 

[moonloops]

Both companies were Nazi funded : Hitler supported any company which demonstrated the technical superiority of Germany before the war , and gave ‘unlimited’ resources to companies which helped with the war effort.

Uhlenhaut stated this in an interview many years ago .

Are we not forgetting that Mercedes, during the war used thousands of slaves and forced labourers including Jews, foreigners, and POWs. According to historian Bernard Bellon (Mercedes in Peace and War, 1990), at least eight Jews were murdered by DB managers or SS men at a plant in occupied Poland.

 

[whitenemesis]

Interesting that Auto Union was Nazi funded yet Hitler was seen in a Mercedes in many occasions. Both state and personal.

Mercedes got the lion's share of the funding, yet Auto Union achieved the record. MB couldn't participate in the GP as their performance would have been embarrassingly poor.

 

[219]

Are we not forgetting that Mercedes, during the war used thousands of slaves and forced labourers including Jews, foreigners, and POWs. According to historian Bernard Bellon (Mercedes in Peace and War, 1990), at least eight Jews were murdered by DB managers or SS men at a plant in occupied Poland.

And you think that Auto Union didn’t ???

 

[219]

Mercedes got the lion's share of the funding, yet Auto Union achieved the record. MB couldn't participate in the GP as their performance would have been embarrassingly poor.

Erm , MB did compete in most of the GPs in the 1930s , right up to 1939 , and won their fair share of them .

Perhaps you haven’t heard of the W125 and W154 ?

In 1938 a special streamlined W125 set , and to this day still holds , the land speed record for a public road . The car is in the museum in Stuttgart.

Mercedes-Benz Brand Experience

Innovative concepts, exceptional collaborations, background stories. Be inspired.

www.mercedes-benz.com

Then there was the T80 land speed record car

Mercedes-Benz T80 – World Record Project Car | eMercedesBenz

The Mercedes-Benz T80 was a six-wheeled vehicle built by Mercedes-Benz, developed and designed by Ferdinand Porsche

emercedesbenz.com

They raced against the Auto Union V16s .

Mercedes not competitive? Really ?

 

[Deleted member 37751]

Watched this earlier and must admit I felt a little uncomfortable with one particular talking head on the programme (light blue shirt dude) who seemed to revel in some of the more salacious Nazi tactics.

That aside, from a technical aspect, really enjoyed it, especially the supercharger bits...

 

[whitenemesis]

Erm , MB did compete in most of the GPs in the 1930s , right up to 1939 , and won their fair share of them .

Erm, did you watch the program? I was referring to the speed trials and G P in Berlin immediately following the funding. Auto Union took the speed record round the AVUS track. MB did well in practice but pulled out before the actual race. Yes they then later participated in the pre-war GPs

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

270 MPH on public roads (albeit closed) in 1938

 

[219]

Erm, did you watch the program? I was referring to the speed trials and G P in Berlin immediately following the funding. Auto Union took the speed record round the AVUS track. MB did well in practice but pulled out before the actual race. Yes they then later participated in the pre-war GPs

I do not have a television set so did not see this programme which clearly gives a very selective view of racing during this period .

MB did compete in numerous GPs right up to the weeks before the war , and won many of them .

As detailed here .

1934 to 1939 Grand Prix Racing with Mercedes-Benz and the Silver Arrows

myautoworld.com

MB and Auto Union famously raced at Donnington in 1938 , with AU winning and MB taking second place .

To say they were not competitive would be entirely wrong .

1938 Donington Grand Prix | Motorsport Database

Find all the details and all the info on October 22 1938 Donington Grand Prix. Find race reports, circuit info, driver and team details.

database.motorsportmagazine.com

 

[whitenemesis]

I do not have a television set so did not see this programme which clearly gives a very selective view of racing during this period

How can you say that if you didn't see it?
Those that did see it would have understood the context in which I posted.

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

I only saw the second half (and that was on C4+1!) but I quite enjoyed it.

It was very much in the vein of the modern documentary which cuts to a selection of experts, who are often experts at ‘making generic comments as if they’re an expert’ rather than being an expert in the subject of the documentary, and who repeat relatively simple points several times using different words - like “crikey 270 MPH was fast” - which for me detracts a little bit not much. A dorky copied from mainstream TV like “Biggest Bloopers” and “Top 20 Comedy Moments from the 1990s”.

I really like the Abandoned Engineering series but they do the same thing - and it does detract a little from what is otherwise a fascinating programme - I put up with it as there’s nothing else quite like it. I suspect the commentators are briefed or use scripts, as they can’t possibly be an expert on abandoned Russian military bases in Mongolia, abandoned Industrial abattoirs in China, abandoned bridges in Peru, abandoned hydro electric projects in Finland, abandoned stadiums in Germany, etc.

 

[st13phil]

I suspect the commentators are briefed or use scripts, as they can’t possibly be an expert on...

I share your irritations, but I guess the issue is that there are a limited number of subject matter experts who can also present in an engaging way? Obvious exceptions to that would include people like Lucy Worsley, Andrew Graham-Dixon and so forth, so there are some who have the combination of knowledge and ability to communicate.

 

[st13phil]

Overall I thought the program was ok, but disappointing. With the exception of the aero simulation work at the end it was light on information about the cars, and it also tip-toed around the Nazi influence and so was light on anything other than superficial historical commentary. Superficially interesting, but a bit of a missed opportunity then.

 

[219]

How can you say that if you didn't see it?
Those that did see it would have understood the context in which I posted.

I don’t need to see the programme to take issue with ‘MB couldn't participate in the GP as their performance would have been embarrassingly poor.’

I know that MB and AU were arch rivals at that time and took turns at winning and losing different races .

 

[219]

Overall I thought the program was ok, but disappointing. With the exception of the aero simulation work at the end it was light on information about the cars, and it also tip-toed around the Nazi influence and so was light on anything other than superficial historical commentary. Superficially interesting, but a bit of a missed opportunity then.

Most big German companies try to play down their activities during the 30s and 40s but the simple fact is they had no choice : MB , AU , BMW , Maybach all were tasked with producing war machinery , MB possibly more diverse than the others , but all certainly made military vehicles , aero and marine engines and even armaments. Similarly with the likes of Krupp , Seimens , Blohm & Voss . They couldn’t say no .

Not only that , but it isn’t hard to find pictures of well known personalities - Von Braun , Willi Messerschmitt, Ernst Heinkel , Ferdinand Porsche and others hobnobbing with high party officials .

Just as here , can you imagine what would have happened if Sir Henry Royce refused to turn his factories over to the war effort ?

 

[st13phil]

I don’t need to see the programme to take issue with ‘MB couldn't participate in the GP as their performance would have been embarrassingly poor.’

But if you had watched the program, you would know that that statement related solely to the Berlin GP on the Avus circuit in 1934, which was the first appearance of the Auto Union P-Wagen and the Mercedes W25, the Mercedes being withdrawn before the race due to poor performance in practice.

 

[219]

But if you had watched the program, you would know that that statement related solely to the Berlin GP on the Avus circuit in 1934, which was the first appearance of the Auto Union P-Wagen and the Mercedes W25, the Mercedes being withdrawn before the race due to poor performance in practice.

That’s at variance with WN saying above that they did ‘quite well’ in practice ...

Those who have studied racing of the period will also know that the Auto Union cars were Porsche’s first foray into designing performance cars with the engine anywhere but up front ( as in the W07 which he did for MB ) and that although he had done the 130 and 170 heckmotoren for MB , then the KDF wagen for Hitler , these were hardly performance cars . Despite the V16 being moved forwards , the Auto Unions , even the late D types , were notoriously unstable , even if they had the edge on power in a straight line ; it was in no small part to the skills of ‘regenmeister’ Carraciola , who excelled like no other in the rain , that MB did so well , but their cars were also inherently more stable .

 

[st13phil]

That’s at variance with WN saying above that they did ‘quite well’ in practice ...

The W25 had shown strong performance (hence did "quite well" in practice), but had a big reliability issue with the fuel system - either fuel pump or carburettor - and hence overall poor performance which resulted in the car being withdrawn. Which is all well-documented.

the Auto Unions , even the late D types , were notoriously unstable

Indeed they were.