Home Office set to approve new SPECS3 cameras

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However one thing that does concern me is the creeping of 30 and 40 zones out of built up areas. Routes that used to be NSL bordering urban areas are now being hit with extended 30 and 40 zones which are over-zealous.

One of the reasons for the reduction of NSL limits in rural areas, is that rural roads have the highest number of deaths but only the second highest number of accidents, behind urban areas.

I would like to see the motorway/dual carriage limits increased to say 80mph as in France, to counter the reduction in urban limits.
 
But why should the car drivers suffer just because they are attracted to the park ...

Just as a slightly different example , motorcyclists the world over are attracted to the Isle of Man , but they don't drop their speed limits do they ?

Wales has some stunning scenery and narrow roads , but no ones suggesting a 20 limit there ... why penalise one group of road users just because others want to look at the scenery ?

It's not silly at all. We're just talking about speed limits , horses cross the road in the country all the time , on blind bends , and don't get run over , at least the park is wide and open so you can see them miles away , same with the deer , they don't just suddenly appear like they do in the countryside out of a hedgerow.
 
So you ride a road racing bike in a park with designated cycle paths that are not to your liking... and because of this you think all car drivers should be limited to 20mph?

On a decent road racing bicycle, 20mph is peanuts, its so slow in fact that I'll wager you regularly exceed this restriction as the pace is just too limiting.

and once more with feeling... the paths around the edge are not designed for racing bikes, they are not pure cycle paths so you are expected to mix with pedestrians and cyclists coming in the other direction. the surface is not bonded and the speed achievable on a road bike as you so eloquently point out would not be appropriate for a narrow windy path.

i think the speed limit of 20 mph is appropriate for Richmond park for a variety of reasons (narrow roads, horses, deer, bikes and lots of people using the space for leisure) and yet you try to distill my argument into just cycling. I use many types of transport in London and so feel i have a degree of sympathy for them all - perhaps you should try seeing the argument from more than the position of a car driver having to slow from 30 to 20.
 
But why should the car drivers suffer just because they are attracted to the park ...

Just as a slightly different example , motorcyclists the world over are attracted to the Isle of Man , but they don't drop their speed limits do they ?

Wales has some stunning scenery and narrow roads , but no ones suggesting a 20 limit there ... why penalise one group of road users just because others want to look at the scenery ?

It's not silly at all. We're just talking about speed limits , horses cross the road in the country all the time , on blind bends , and don't get run over , at least the park is wide and open so you can see them miles away , same with the deer , they don't just suddenly appear like they do in the countryside out of a hedgerow.

if the car drivers are attracted to the park then slowing down isnt going to detract from their enjoyment in fact it will enhance it.

why is slowing down a penalty?

as i seem to have said many times its the combination of factors that make richmond park different, cycles plus walkers plus deer plus horses etc etc. none of the comparisons with wales are valid i'm afraid. and i'm not sure the IOM example is good. I'm not saying that its the abundance of one type of road user that means a 20mph limit I'm saying the combination of factors makes it different.

@spike yes I'm quite sure that on the steepest downhills, (ham Dip, Broomfield, and sawyers hill) i'd exceed 20 mph for a short period. but it strikes me (call me a cynic) that it's a "when did you stop beating your wife! question.
 
Of course it's valid. Its a countryside environment where you are likely to encounter the same sorts of animals , but with much less warning.

You don't go to the park to drive around it ( unless you are nuts ) you drive there to park up and have a walk.

The point i am trying to highlight is that none of the cross section of society that you mention , barring the cyclists are going to be found on the road. The roads are narrow , but so are country roads , why should the limit be reduced in the park but not the country ?
 
This is bloody ridiculous. I do some work with Sustrans maintaining a local trail, but am bombarded by loony leftist twits campaigning to make Greater Bristol a 20mph zone. All of it.

Muppets. Want to drag us back to horses and carts ;)
 
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in richmond park a very large proportion of the people using it have to cross the road.

horses have to cross the road to get to the riding trails, walkers often have to cross the road to get to the middle parts of the park, there are many cyclists that are there to use the road, the runners have to cross the road at every entry gate and finally the deer, at a concentration far in excess of the density found in a natural environment , choose to cross the road.

in combination with all these factors the roads are narrow and indeed two cars overtaking two bikes all occupying the same bit of tarmac is not uncommon.

on their own I would not suggest that a 20 mph limit would be enforced. there are plenty of sheep on scottish highland roads, plenty of cycles on the embankment in London, narrow roads in wales and lots of prams and strollers in hyde park and in none of those situations do I see a 20mph limit being suitable. To construct parallel arguments with any of these situations in isolation is to misrepresent my position.

in the light that many car drivers are there to enjoy the park as well I don't see the issue of taking an extra minute per mile on your way to the car park to then stroll round. If you are using richmond park as a cut through to avoid traffic then I think that's a waste of a good park.

and with that I'm off to bed - I'm actually going to drive there tomorrow and run round it for the exercise. Fingers crossed for the weather and yes Spike I will be sticking to the speed limit.
 
>Biscuit I was only seeking an answer as I often find myself being overtaken in the park by lycra clad cyclists (on the flat as well as on the hills), who clearly find 20mph is too leisurely a pace.

If you take your cycling seriously which it sounds like you do, then I struggle to get my head around you not exceeding this speed on tarmac whilst on a specialised race bike...especially when my son breaks the magic 20mph barrier aboard his Rally Chopper at every given opportunity. (I don't know where he gets it from I really don't :devil:)

I can only assume that being such a law abiding chap, you prefer to hold yourself back to comply with the law. I hope you don't mind me taking the liberty of suggesting that riding even a Sturmey Archer 3-speed on the designated cycle paths would allow you both the opportunity to make better progress and burn more calories, without risking the attention of the boys in blue. The added bonus (for everyone) is you wont have to wear lycra either on such a steed. :D

Like cyclists, I too find that 20mph is an over zealous limit for most of the park. Sure, one has to be a little more careful around the car park entrances at busy times (as you would at any busy juncture), but for the vast majority of all journeys I have taken through the park in the last 20+ years, 30 mph is a very moderate speed due to the good visibility and very small volume of hazards.

To put some perspective on this, if one were to compare say... traversing the Kingston one way system at 30mph or driving through the park at the same given speed, which one presents the most danger or greater number of hazards? Equally, if one were to look at the accident statistics from both (I don't have any to hand unfortunately), I strongly suspect that the urban option yields a far higher number of injuries. If this is the case (and I am confident that it is) why the strange choice of location for the limit in the first place? Would the limit not be better placed where the risk is highest?
 
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Greenwich park is also mentioned. However, since the closure of the lower set of park gates, Greenwich park is now only a glorified car park anyway and even 20mph is pushing it.
When the lower gates were open, it was a through road and it was a quick short cut to get from the upper Blackheath area by the tea hut down to the lower one way system by the Cutty Sark. Even at 20mph.
 
Now back at work and feeling very smug after running round RP this morning. Absolutely glorious.

a couple of points as I went round some of which are answers to your questions Spike.

a) the mixed use cycle walking track has a speed limit of 10 mph. given the concentration of kiddies, walkers and dogs it seems sensible that any bikes using it would be limited to that. Indeed at places the pedestrians have priority and cyclists are asked to dismount.
I now feely admit that I must have inadvertantly exceeded the speed limit on some sections of my run but am confident that on the average speed recording devices I was well below 10mph. I apologise unreservedly and plead guilty to running in excess of the prescribed limit and running without due care and attention.

b) as such it makes the idea of going round it on a race bike a nonsense (in addition to the surface conditions described before) as its much more suited to the poodling rather than outright exercising on two wheels.

c) you'd never make "better progress" on an unbonded, mixed use winding path, on almost any bike, compared to a tarmac road. i think that you'd burn far more calories at 18-20mph on the road than you would doing less than 10 on the path.

I would not advocate a 20mph limit in Kingston for several reasons-

1) the travel patterns of a town centre are far removed from those of RP. the vast majority of people in vehicles are commuting, school running, through traffic, working, deliveries, shopping etc. not many people go to Kingston one way system to walk the dog, run, push a pram or enjoy the view. As such it's fair to elevate the need for speed of traffic over the general ambience and reverse that priority for the Park.

2) whilst the danger in the town centre must be higher, the level of protection is equally on another scale. The park does not have crash barriers, pedestrian crossings, parked cars, one way systems or traffic lights all of which afford the town centre pedestrian some protection. It doesnt even have kerbs just little grass banks and wooden posts. In short the urban traffic planners go to great lengths to separate vehicles and people with all sorts of devices that would be totally inappropriate in RP.

In short richmond Park is an oasis from London rather than a true part of it and therein lies it's beauty. It's the exception rather than the rule and as such I believe can be afforded a different set of limits that I would not be comfortable were they to be rolled out indiscriminately.

Defence rests......:D
 
:D :D

I would still like to hear of a 'racing biker' who 'races' around Richmond park below 20mph..

In this area I feel Biscuit's defence may be crumbling

(all that just to get that pun out...:rolleyes: :eek: )


Back to children being educated on road crossing etc, when i was at school i remember going to a road safety class all done under the 'Green Cross Code' brand. It's been a long time since I have seen him on our TV - Is David Prowse still alive??
 
Yes I knew that but Darth hasn't been around for a while either ;)
 
Prowse still going strong - website still offering autographs at least....

I can't testify as to my exact speeds on two wheels as I dont have a speedo on the bike, but suffice to say I dont overtake cars - its dangerous, and make you look a tit when they come past you again on the uphill.:eek: Its better to sit behind a car and get dragged along in the draught.

as an aside I'd challenge anyone to average 20mph between Kingston Gate and richmond one or indeed between robin hood gate and sheen gate. What seems to be "flat" in the car is anything but on a bike. A 20mph average on your own over any distance is not to be sniffed at....
 
In that case bring back the GCC MAN!! :bannana:

I only brought up the bike thing so i could make my rubbish pun! :D
 
NICE one .... ba tum tish :D

oooh that's rich, tea anyone?

it's certainly something to digest I've got to go now etc etc
 
good work! :D
 

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