Honda plant to close

[John]

Was that £18K list? We bought one of our daughters (it was her choice) a Jazz EX (so that's the top-of-the-range one) in 2014 and with 5yrs service and warranty it was £13,500. An annoying thing is part of that was a £500 refund if we took the 0% PCP - I just wanted to pay outright for the car, but not so much that I'd walk away from £500!

Could have been - memory a bit hazy now! I just remember the headline figure they quoted. We were not offered 0% APR either whereas Nissan were offering as well as other things.

I liked the Honda Integra Type R DC5. Had one on our test fleet (like this one), it handled great and went along very well.

Sad really because I've liked a lot of their previous models like that one above, the wedgie Type R (even the successor to that) and the Accord Type R, S2000 and of course the NSX (although I'd not want any of them now - I'd like to drive some of them now).

 

[Rory]

Its range may be "rubbish," to UK minds, but Americans love them, with the Civic being THE top selling car in the States

Hmmm....a quick Google suggests it was 9th best selling last year.

if they could be leased for the same price here as they can in the US, they'd be a lot more popular here.

 

[st13phil]

Its range may be "rubbish," to UK minds, but Americans love them, with the Civic being THE top selling car in the States (1 in five of which is produced in Swindon).

I'm not sure whether it's the case with the current Civic, but for many years Honda cars carrying the same name have been different (and not just cosmetic differences) for the US and European markets. For example, the American Accord was significantly larger than the European market car with the same name, so while the Civic may currently be the top selling car in the USA, it's not necessarily the Civic that we see in the UK.

And as an aside, the Ford F150 is regularly the best selling passenger vehicle in the USA, but that really is a rubbish car

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

Apologies guys, I was quoting the Civic as being the Number one selling car ....in 2017. (Blame Honda's PR department)

"A Ford F150 is a truck, it ain't a car, Boy !!" says he, with his best Texan accent.

Americans don't call pickups and SUV's cars because they're not cars - being taxed differently and being exempt from the gas guzzler controls which invented the segment decades ago.

St13phil is absolutely right that American Civics are not the same as British civics, or any other civics. Every market spec is different. But obviously one in five "American" Civics is built in Swindon - at least until 2022.

Can't say that I give a stuff about the design features of the Civic (too small for my European build). I'm only interested in why Honda build cars where they do, and why 80% of the UK output goes to the US, UK and "Rest of the World."

 

[Doodle]

I'm not sure whether it's the case with the current Civic, but for many years Honda cars carrying the same name have been different (and not just cosmetic differences) for the US and European markets. For example, the American Accord was significantly larger than the European market car with the same name, so while the Civic may currently be the top selling car in the USA, it's not necessarily the Civic that we see in the UK.

In reality, the only real divergence for US vs Euro Civics was in the 2nd half of the 00s. While Europe got the jellymould FN chassis, the US received the FD (which we only saw here in Hybrid form or as imported Type Rs). The rest of the time it is merely shell variants of the same chassis, due to local market preferences etc.

 

[alabbasi]

Wow, who could have seen that happen?

 

[grober]

Wow, who could have seen that happen?

Al as one of our American forum members it would be interesting to hear why you think Honda has enjoyed greater success in the USA than the UK/ EUROPE?

 

[alabbasi]

It's all about value. Japanese cars started taking over the domestic market in the US during the 70 and 80's, shortly after the oil crises when Americans started to look for smaller , more economical cars. The domestic car manufacturers were slow to respond and their build quality until the last decade was pretty atrocious. I'm not sure how to describe how bad American cars were when I first moved here from the UK in 2000. A European Ford Mondeo was a nice car to drive. The US one felt like an egg box and the engine was course had zero power, I think that it still used the CVH engine. The interiors were considerably cheaper made, even though they looked the same.

Honda and Toyota by contrast made high quality, nice driving , efficient cars that would run 250k miles all day and all night and sold them for the same price as domestic cars that would fall apart in 5 years. The base price on a 2019 Honda Accord is $23,720 which is around 18,000 GBP (it would have been 14,000GBP pre brexit but the value of the GBP has fallen off a cliff since). That car would have everything (electric windows, air con, cruise control, etc). In Europe they sell for considerably more and competition is stiffer as the Europeans make nicer cars.

Since 2008, both GM and Ford have upped their game and are making nicer vehicles. Honda and Toyota started to slip in sales but as Ford is now getting out of the car market all together (here in the US) and will focus only on crossover, SUV and trucks, with their only car will be the Mustang. I suspect that GM will do the same which will likely mean that Honda and Toyota will own the midsize car market for many years to come.

 

[grober]

It's all about value. Japanese cars started taking over the domestic market in the US during the 70 and 80's, shortly after the oil crises when Americans started to look for smaller , more economical cars. The domestic car manufacturers were slow to respond and their build quality until the last decade was pretty atrocious. I'm not sure how to describe how bad American cars were when I first moved here from the UK in 2000. A European Ford Mondeo was a nice car to drive. The US one felt like an egg box and the engine was course had zero power, I think that it still used the CVH engine. The interiors were considerably cheaper made, even though they looked the same.

Honda and Toyota by contrast made high quality, nice driving , efficient cars that would run 250k miles all day and all night and sold them for the same price as domestic cars that would fall apart in 5 years. The base price on a 2019 Honda Accord is $23,720 which is around 18,000 GBP (it would have been 14,000GBP pre brexit but the value of the GBP has fallen off a cliff since). That car would have everything (electric windows, air con, cruise control, etc). In Europe they sell for considerably more and competition is stiffer as the Europeans make nicer cars.

Since 2008, both GM and Ford have upped their game and are making nicer vehicles. Honda and Toyota started to slip in sales but as Ford is now getting out of the car market all together (here in the US) and will focus only on crossover, SUV and trucks, with their only car will be the Mustang. I suspect that GM will do the same which will likely mean that Honda and Toyota will own the midsize car market for many years to come.

I suspected as much but nice to get it confirmed.

 

[Doodle]

View attachment 83701 I liked the Honda Integra Type R DC5. Had one on our test fleet (like this one), it handled great and went along very well.

Ah, I miss mine, and the FD2 Civic that followed it even more. They made me drive like a complete a*se though.

 

[alabbasi]

I suspected as much but nice to get it confirmed.

In my experience, the quality of Honda and Toyota is somewhat slipping with the newest models. They don't feel as solid as they used to. The Koreans in the last decade have really upped their game. I rented a Kia Optima recently and was surprised at how nice a car it is.

 

[SW18]

In my experience, the quality of Honda and Toyota is somewhat slipping with the newest models. They don't feel as solid as they used to. The Koreans in the last decade have really upped their game. I rented a Kia Optima recently and was surprised at how nice a car it is.

Curious how brands ascend and decline, it’s not just the car industry but others too. Anyway, many people seem impressed at the way Kia has gone, yet it doesn’t seem long since they were selling antiquated Mazda designs at knock-down prices. I suppose next it will be the Chinese makes who up their game and surprise us. And possibly with electric cars rather than petrol ones.

 

[alabbasi]

The Koreans are doing exactly what the Japanese did 30 years before them. They built cheap cars in order to penetrate a market and as they got their production processes figured out, they started building better cars. I believe that Hyundai / Kia hired Audi's head designer about a decade ago when it decided that it would go up market. They've since been building some very respectable cars. I've got friends on the bodyshop business that tell me that they're also structurally very solid.

I think that both Honda and Toyota have become reliant on their reputation. When you have a car that would run 250k miles with very little buy way of repairs, you develop a cultish fan base. I dated a girl back in 2010 who bought a brand new civic, it was a nice car and everything looked good from the drivers position. However if you dip your head below the steering wheel, there's a bunch of exposed wires all over the place. Nothing that a kick panel would not have fixed but that's where they cheap out. Toyota's still use a lot of plastic.

The Chinese will be next.

 

[Darrell]

I was in an UBER recently that was a KIA hybrid of some description. It was a very impressive piece of kit.

 

[190]

The Chinese will be next.

There are already 30 different makes of motorcycles and scooters being imported from China. They are very cheap but some of the ones I've seen have been truly dreadful quality. Some have copied old Honda engine designs and maybe those engines are not to bad. It's the material quality of the cycle parts that are not remotely up to the standards of early Japanese imports. They'll get better but have quite some way to go yet.

 

[MercedesDriver]

I suppose next it will be the Chinese makes who up their game and surprise us. And possibly with electric cars rather than petrol ones.

With something probably like this and I wouldn’t be surprised seeing it on our roads in a very near future, in a year or two.

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[grober]

肏你祖宗十八代 !!!! I draw the line at learning Mandarin to turn on the wipers. Besides we already have Volvo for those wishing to drive a Geely!

 

[Deleted member 6183]

Cheap cars?

I'm up for it.

 

[NOMONEYBUTAMERC]

The U.K. transport market has been constantly changing , with Honda`s defection taking its place in the cycle.
I remember a neighbour in the early 60`s who owned a 650BSA Rocket Gold Star . A beast of a machine , but totally unreliable. He decided to buy a smaller bike for his daily commute. He chose a 125cc Yamaha twin. The reasons for choosing it were , bland BSA Bantam or Triumph Tiger Cub , versus Sporty looking Yamaha that boasted electric start , rev counter , indicators , plenty of chrome and good finance deals. His mates started to buy Hondas and Suzukis with similar shiny bits . The beginning of the Jap era was with us.
A few years later my brother in law wanted to buy a new car , looking at ,amongst others , Ford Escort and Vauxhall Viva. He chose a Honda , which for a similar price to the others , included Radio , heated rear screen , hazard lights , cigarette lighter , and a few other "goodies". The Japanese , through carefully researching the market , gave people what they wanted , at a competitive price. Many of the then " older" generation would not touch Japanese products , but the younger buyers snapped them up.
Today you can buy a Korean car with 7 year warranty which will give most of their competitors a run for their money . With Hondas share of the European market dropping from a high of 2% of all new registrations in 2007 to just 0.8% in 2018 it seems the Koreans , in part , are beating the Japs at their own game. Hopefully the 2 year closure notice will provide adequate time for relocating the workforce to neighbouring industries .

 

[markjay]

In my experience, the quality of Honda and Toyota is somewhat slipping with the newest models. They don't feel as solid as they used to. The Koreans in the last decade have really upped their game. I rented a Kia Optima recently and was surprised at how nice a car it is.

That was my impression as well.