Honest John and Hybrids

[l5foye]

Has anyone seen HJ's report on hybrids? It is claimed that over 90% of hybrids do not come near achieving their official MPG figures. The worst 'offender' is the C350e which gives only 37% of the official MPG figures.
Best is the Lexus GS450h at 84%. I will eave the room now.

 

[m2287]

My Lexus CT200h was great in town but as soon as it hit anything above 30mph, the mpg was abysmal.

 

[Scott_F]

In the real world few cars if any can achieve the fuel economy figures claimed by manufacturers.

 

[Rayny]

OK - so none of them are realistic. But 37% for one of the MBs and 84% for a Lexus is a significant difference..

 

[paul73mt]

i thought all cars now were tested in the real world, or hasn't that started yet??

 

[Steveml63]

Hi,
My brother has a 3 series hybrid.
It has a very small fuel tank and gets terrible mpg if he does not plug it in every night to recharge the hybrid batteries.
As his company won’t reimburse him for the home electricity used and because he has a fuel card - he just suffers the low mpg and refills of the tank every 200 Miles.
Everybody in is company drives a hybrid - including the MD, who has a hybrid Cayenne.
They all admit it’s simply a company car tax scam and allows them free access to London (no congestion charge).
Hybrids are definitely not the answer for reduced emissions or economic driving - unless they are charged and used properly.
Cheers
Steve

 

[Petrol Pete]

We don't need Honest John to tell us Hybrids are a scam. And I personally feel all manufacturers are guilty of lying on an industrial scale and guilty of false advertising when it comes to fuel consumption figures for their cars.
It's been said before but I think all vehicles should be tested in real world conditions (world wide) by independent test companies paid for by a pot of money ALL manufacturers pay into.

Cars from each model range are selected at random from the end of the production line or off the docks and tested in real world conditions then the manufacturer is TOLD what the fuel consumption is and its also published world wide.

Don't like the results ? that's OK you are still allowed to sell that model in whatever country but you are not legally allowed to make any claim of fuel consumption that differs from the one the independent testers found.

Pretty much all car manufactures are blatant liars when it come to emissions and fuel consumption....VW anyone ?

 

[GeeJayW]

Hi,
My brother has a 3 series hybrid.
It has a very small fuel tank and gets terrible mpg if he does not plug it in every night to recharge the hybrid batteries.
As his company won’t reimburse him for the home electricity used and because he has a fuel card - he just suffers the low mpg and refills of the tank every 200 Miles.
Everybody in is company drives a hybrid - including the MD, who has a hybrid Cayenne.
They all admit it’s simply a company car tax scam and allows them free access to London (no congestion charge).
Hybrids are definitely not the answer for reduced emissions or economic driving - unless they are charged and used properly.
Cheers
Steve

Totally agree.

 

[GeeJayW]

We don't need Honest John to tell us Hybrids are a scam. And I personally feel all manufacturers are guilty of lying on an industrial scale and guilty of false advertising when it comes to fuel consumption figures for their cars.
It's been said before but I think all vehicles should be tested in real world conditions (world wide) by independent test companies paid for by a pot of money ALL manufacturers pay into.

Cars from each model range are selected at random from the end of the production line or off the docks and tested in real world conditions then the manufacturer is TOLD what the fuel consumption is and its also published world wide.

Don't like the results ? that's OK you are still allowed to sell that model in whatever country but you are not legally allowed to make any claim of fuel consumption that differs from the one the independent testers found.

Pretty much all car manufactures are blatant liars when it come to emissions and fuel consumption....VW anyone ?

I agree the emissions testing for the official results should be carried out by independent labs.

In the U.K. at least some of the compliance testing done for the VCA is carried out by independent labs (we used to do some for them), but there aren't many labs and the test facilities cost millions to build and millions to run.

The manufacturers test the cars in compliance with the regulations, which were not designed for fuel economy testing. They have learned how to optimise their vehicles to get the best possible results from the tests because it gives them a competitive advantage to do so. Unfortunately his has seemingly led them down the path of effectively cheating the emissions testing process.

The problem with 'real world' conditions testing is there is no definition of what real world conditions means or how to accurately replicate them in the test(s). Carrying out emissions tests on the highway can be done, but the reliability of the test data is questionable IMHO because it is much more difficult to manage the variables in a consistent way. Things like weather conditions, road surface, traffic conditions, gradient etc. all vary day to day, place to place. It's very easy to get wildly different results from the same vehicle from seemingly small differences in driving conditions (been there, done that).

Things may have changed, but when I was involved in testing hybrids and EVs a few years ago, the drive cycle used was different from the one used for conventional cars. Different cycle, different results.

 

[Deleted member 126969]

I have a C350e and never for one second expected it to get even close to the claimed figure. In reality, I can get anything from many hundreds of mpg (one tank gave over 700mpg, would have been over 1000 if I hadn’t done a 200 mile round trip) to low 30s depending on how far I drive, how I drive, and if I start with a full charge or not. Simply put, it is highly sensitive to use.

The Lexus claimed mpg is more or less realistic and could be achieved most of the time, largely because it is a small capacity non-PHEV making it far less dependent on usage. The figure quoted for the C350e is, in the real world, nonsense, it simply follows from the flawed testing regime.

For many, they are just a tax dodge. For some, like me, they work brilliantly as a cheap to run solution.

They do help somewhat with air quality in urban areas as often they will be running on stored charge at low speeds.

You have to look carefully at these headlines. Very much like the old statistic from WW1 when the number of head injuries dramatically increased with the shift to steel helmets. Easy to miss the fact that prior to steel and the use of cloth caps, a bullet to the head usually resulted in death, not injury.

 

[GeeJayW]

This looks like an interesting paper, though I've only had a scan through it thus far. Might have a proper read later.
https://res.mdpi.com/energies/energ.../energies-10-01590.pdf?filename=&attachment=1

 

[Deleted member 126969]

This looks like an interesting paper, though I've only had a scan through it thus far. Might have a proper read later.
https://res.mdpi.com/energies/energ.../energies-10-01590.pdf?filename=&attachment=1

I went straight to the last page

1. 
   
   
   • These results demonstrate that the EMS strategies of the tested vehicle can achieve, in test conditions closer to real life such as those corresponding to the WLTP, even higher efficiency levels than those that are currently evaluated on the NEDC, and prove the effectiveness of HEV technology to reduce CO2 emissions.

 

[190]

I can't complain. The official combined figure for My C180K is 44.8 MPG and my 3 year average is 44.72 MPG but that's only been achieved because I almost never do traffic. Open road and motorway use has returned the official figure. With urban use you can only expect to get the urban figure which in my case is 33.6 MPG.

 

[Deleted member 6183]

I guess that these hybrids are heavier than normal so once you are out of battery power it's not very efficient.

I did consider one recently, most of my journeys would be less than 20 miles and I have an outside socket so could charge every night, my concern was more about reliability in the longer term.

 

[GeeJayW]

I guess that these hybrids are heavier than normal so once you are out of battery power it's not very efficient.

I did consider one recently, most of my journeys would be less than 20 miles and I have an outside socket so could charge every night, my concern was more about reliability in the longer term.

Yep, once the battery power is depleted, the ICE is left to drag everything along on its own as well as recharging the battery.

Long term battery life is a significant concern as replacement cost is expensive.

 

[Stratman]

Hybrids are more useful in urban driving, where energy which would otherwise be wasted in braking is used to move the car from standstill, one of the most fuel costly operations, as is repeatedly speeding up and slowing down where the electric motor again comes to the rescue.

Once on the open road at a steady speed it's mostly running on the engine and whatever its unaided fuel consumption is. It's why they're so popular with city centre taxi drivers.

 

[GeeJayW]

Hybrids are more useful in urban driving, where energy which would otherwise be wasted in braking is used to move the car from standstill, one of the most fuel costly operations, as is repeatedly speeding up and slowing down where the electric motor again comes to the rescue.

Once on the open road at a steady speed it's mostly running on the engine and whatever its unaided fuel consumption is. It's why they're so popular with city centre taxi drivers.

They also make more sense in urban environments from an emissions/local air quality point of view also speeds of 50 km/h or less.

 

[whitenemesis]

my concern was more about reliability in the longer term.

Long term battery life is a significant concern as replacement cost is expensive.

Toyota/Lexus have a long experience with hybrids. They give a 10yr/unlimited mileage warranty on the hybrid system. There are very few problems posted on the various forums and those I've read are mostly to do with failed battery cells which can now be swapped out more cheaply than replacing a traditional 12v battery

 

[GeeJayW]

I guess Toyota/Lexus have the most experience. We had an early Prius that 'bricked' its hybrid battery, I think we gave it away in the end. Good to know things have improved.

 

[BIRMA]

Our real world experience of running a hybrid is very good. My wife has a Yaris hybrid (which I think is crap overall) before the hybrid she had a 2 litre petrol VW Beetle.
Over the last three years we have used one third of the fuel we used to buy. I'm a bit of an anorak about running costs, I know I drive a 6 litre 12 cylinder car but thought I'd just do the exercise about her fuel running costs when she first bought the hybrid and I still keep a record.
This combined with zero road tax has without doubt proved to be a good move.
I would hasten to add she is always stuck in very slow traffic going into Portsmouth which has got progressively worse over the last few years so her journey is probably 35% running on battery.
With care I can run to our local Tesco Express and back on battery power.
If I were doing her journey on a daily basis a hybrid would be the only car to use.