Householders and the use of force against intruders

[Satch]

CPS Guidance:

http://www.cps.gov.uk/publications/prosecution/householders.html

Ah, so that is all right then. But hang on:

"In some cases, for instance where the facts are very clear, or where less serious injuries are involved, the investigation will be concluded very quickly, without any need for arrest. In more complicated cases, such as where a death or serious injury occurs, more detailed enquiries will be necessary."

So you clobber an intruder, he comes to harm and you will be arrested. And the have to prove you acted reasonably. Is that not where we are already??

More pre election smoke and mirrors.

 

[Shude]

I used to work with a guy who had a trailer in West Virginia (he was from Yorkshire) and he said the yanks have a much better system: Burglar? Shoot 'em! He said you can sign up to a club where you are obliged to buy a gun, train with it to a certain standard and then you are entitled to $10k if you shoot and kill a burglar in your own home. You get stickers and posters for your home to advertise this. They have never paid out.

...you knew of an intended intruder and set a trap to hurt or to kill them rather than involve the police

A friend of my father's had a plank of wood that had loads of nails knocked through it, this was left with the points up under the garage window.

One night he was woken up by the howlings of a burglar who had managed to force the window open and had landed on the plank of wood w/nails. The police weren't very happy with this but he explained that his young son had been practicing with the hammer and nails and must have left the plank of wood out. They insisted that it was a burglar-trap and that he wasn't to do it again, he wasn't prosecuted for anything.

 

[Flash]

On one of our building sites there was a bit of "Beef" - the "animals" got one over me by using petrol bombs but after that I was all "tooled up" and prepared for them to come back every night for a good few months until we completed and sold the development - one night the Police turned up in a big van with 9 riot egra officers and were fuly aware of the "histroy" of the problems with the "animals" concerned as several Police reports were filed by us - they serached our Sprinter vans as they had been tipped off by the "animals" I was all "tooled up" and just they simply said "blah blah to use if the inturders come back...." the officers then said just to get "rid of it" and left me alone

Flash

 

[glojo]

I used to work with a guy who had a trailer in West Virginia (he was from Yorkshire) and he said the yanks have a much better system: Burglar? Shoot 'em!

There is an often quoted case of two Scotsmen who were drunk and at 2am knocked on someones door in the USA. The two were lost and wanted directions back to their hotel. The householder could not understand there shouts and shot them both dead (through the closed door)

It was deemed that the householder acted lawfully. He was 'in fear of his life'.

I think our country has it about right, but unfortunately there are cases of 'overkeen' Police officers arresting\detaining the inocent party after listening to a criminal making a complaint of assault.

I am certainly NOT defending nor including the farmer from Norfolk who was convicted of the murder in my above remarks.

Regards,
John

 

[glojo]

CPS Guidance:

http://www.cps.gov.uk/publications/prosecution/householders.html

Ah, so that is all right then. But hang on:

More pre election smoke and mirrors.

TOTALLY 100% agree. We are all being treated like idiots. That publication is wrote just to grab votes. It only mentions the home. What about when you work late at the office?

What about if someone tries to rob you?

What about 'car jacking'

Whoever wrote that publication must be on the same medication I'm taking!

Grrrr

John the Angry

 

[Shude]

I am certainly NOT defending nor including the farmer from Norfolk who was convicted of the murder in my above remarks.

What Tony Martin did would have been perfectly legal in some states of the USA and the police would probably have thanked him for taking care of business for them. Tony Martin is famous in the USA because so many yanks followed the story in disbelief - a man who went to prison for essentially protecting his property, posessions, home and family from repeated attacks from the same people.

 

[glojo]

What Tony Martin did would have been perfectly legal in some states of the USA and the police would probably have thanked him for taking care of business for them. Tony Martin is famous in the USA because so many yanks followed the story in disbelief - a man who went to prison for essentially protecting his property, posessions, home and family from repeated attacks from the same people.

Hi Shude,
I understand what you are saying, and the Police let this person down badly by not offering him proper crime prevention support.

However shooting someone in the back when they are running away is not something I would like to see become legal and this is what actually happened in the case you have highlighted.

Also in the US they are amazed that our Emegency drivers get prosecuted if they are involved in an incident whilst responding to an emergency call. I have read of a US case where a Police vehicle rammed the car it was chasing. The vehicle spun, went across the road, mounted the footpath and killed pedestrian. The driver of the vehicle was convicted of the killing!

I believe we are too soft, but shooting someone because they are lost, or another case I actually witnessed where a woman was stopped by Police and shot whilst she was reaching for her license!!! No sign of a gun and she had been requested by a seperate officer to produce some form of 'ID'.

Regards,
John

 

[Alfie]

There is an often quoted case of two Scotsmen who were drunk and at 2am knocked on someones door in the USA. The two were lost and wanted directions back to their hotel. The householder could not understand there shouts and shot them both dead (through the closed door)

It was deemed that the householder acted lawfully. He was 'in fear of his life'.

I think our country has it about right, but unfortunately there are cases of 'overkeen' Police officers arresting\detaining the inocent party after listening to a criminal making a complaint of assault.

I am certainly NOT defending nor including the farmer from Norfolk who was convicted of the murder in my above remarks.

Regards,
John

I lived in Houston for a while and whilst there this very story occured.

The issue arises in that you have the right (in Texas) to defend your family and property with whatever means you deem necessary. Whilst talking to a police officer one evening he told me that if I did shoot an intruder, I should be sure to kill them. Because if I did, there would only be one side of the story to tell and I would not face prosecution. However, if I were to wound the intruder, he could sue me and he would win. Hence the 'make sure you kill them'. Now this seems extreme to me especially when in Texas you can marry at 13 and become a consenting minor. This means you can buy a gun. You cannot drink alcohol nor can you legally have sex with your wife in Europe. But hey, you can kill an intruder with impunity! Madness.

As for someone breaking into my house he would find himself very severly injured by my dog, not me, my dog.

 

[Satch]

What Tony Martin did would have been perfectly legal in some states of the USA and the police would probably have thanked him for taking care of business for them. Tony Martin is famous in the USA because so many yanks followed the story in disbelief - a man who went to prison for essentially protecting his property, posessions, home and family from repeated attacks from the same people.

I agree entirely about the rights individual defence but sadly Tony Martin was about the worst person who could be chosen by fate as an example. He already had his shotgun certificate withdrawn for taking pot shots at people nicking apples from his orchard.

Then equipped himself with a shotgun capable of holding more than two rounds which in this country is a Section 1 firearm and requires a full Firearms Certificate. So even if he had just hung it over his fireplace that would have been worth 5 years

 

[glojo]

Let me give you all a scenario that really happened and one which I again have knowledge of.

A burglar broke into a large house, defecated in the master bedroom and whilst ransacking this room, he chooses a very nice evening dress to smear some of his human muck all over a bedroom wall.

The house owners returning from a night out heard the burglar inside their house and called the Police who arrived within minutes and arrest the burglar.

The house owner finds the mess in the bedroom, immediately runs after the burglar who is now handcuffed and being escorted out of the property by a Police Officer.

The owner who is terribly upset punches the burglar in the face and breaks the burglar’s nose.

What do you think happened??

Don't forget the burglar is under arrest and handcuffed. The owner of the house is not in any danger, or fear of being assaulted.

Regards to you all, and good night
John

 

[SimonsMerc]

However shooting someone in the back when they are running away is not something I would like to see become legal and this is what actually happened in the case you have highlighted.

As far as I'm concerned, the guy had no right to be there and deserved everything he got.

Oh dear, so he was running away was he? He bloody well shouldn't have been there in the first place.

Sorry, but things take on a different point of view after you've been the victim of crime.

-simon

 

[Alfie]

Let me give you all a scenario that really happened and one which I again have knowledge of.

A burglar broke into a large house, defecated in the master bedroom and whilst ransacking this room, he chooses a very nice evening dress to smear some of his human muck all over a bedroom wall.

The house owners returning from a night out heard the burglar inside their house and called the Police who arrived within minutes and arrest the burglar.

The house owner finds the mess in the bedroom, immediately runs after the burglar who is now handcuffed and being escorted out of the property by a Police Officer.

The owner who is terribly upset punches the burglar in the face and breaks the burglar’s nose.

What do you think happened??

Don't forget the burglar is under arrest and handcuffed. The owner of the house is not in any danger, or fear of being assaulted.

Regards to you all, and good night
John

Should have wiped the excrement onto the burglers face and hair,gently.
then when he is spending the night in cells he will be accompanied by his own smell and excrement.

Its easy for us all to pontificate about what is right and wrong but until it happens to you, you dont REALLY know how you will react.

 

[glojo]

Should have wiped the excrement onto the burglers face and hair,gently.
then when he is spending the night in cells he will be accompanied by his own smell and excrement.

Its easy for us all to pontificate about what is right and wrong but until it happens to you, you dont REALLY know how you will react.

Hi Alfie,
You are so right. I am waiting for folks to just offer their opinions on the outcome of this true incident. Satch has very kindly posted the link to inform us of the guide lines and I am sure you will agree that this example fails to meet any of those 'rules'

It is easy to 'spout off' about what 'you' may or may not do, but all actions have consequences. I might repost this on a new thread if it is going off topic???

I cannot put into words my disgust at this type of behaviour, but sadly it is NOT uncommon.

Regards,
John

 

[Benzowner]

As far as I'm concerned, the guy had no right to be there and deserved everything he got.

Oh dear, so he was running away was he? He bloody well shouldn't have been there in the first place.

Sorry, but things take on a different point of view after you've been the victim of crime.

-simon

I have to agree with you on that Simon. The big problem is in this country, is that there is no law of trespass, only breaking and entering.

 

[nickg]

More pre election smoke and mirrors.

Exactly. How long does this govt think it can continue to deceive, lie and spin? They know that because a very sizeable proportion of the population are stupid and lazy, not many of us will appreciate the way we are being manipulated. BUT - you can't fool all of the people all of the time......

Anyway, the last thing we need is for moronic, self-promoting politicians to get more involved with this issue. It is simply one of common sense. We would all feel that we had the right to beat the hell out of an intruder in our homes and have no qualms about it. The law is as it is to protect us from the (very small number of) maniacs who would use it to their advantage.

Lets also hope that the CPS see fit to apply their supposed new found sense of justice for victims to those people whose SUV cars are damaged by "environmental protesters" AKA "lentil socialists" AKA "Red Ken's Class War Crew". If I caught one of them messing with my SL I would be very pleased to test out the new interpretation of the law.........

 

[mark.t]

Burglars

They break in your property at home or on holiday with one aim, to relieve you of your possessions....you hope... to be honest I could not give too hoots about what they would steel and sell for a pittance, I am more concerned about my family and because I can not read minds I have to assume they would hurt me or my family if provoked or evan, god forbid unprovoked, this is the real scary fact that we need ansaws to WHAT DO WE DO THEN I know what I would do but the lefty red gits have not even broached that subject ..........a latest campaign banner was ...would you like more discipline in schools...when they have made smacking a child a offence......bloody leftys...the place is full of work shy ambulance chasing whinging wineing fibbing cheating thieving sub-human low life scum...and thats just the house of commons so no hope for the rest of us

 

[nickg]

Blimey - I'll not be breaking into your house. You sound like a nutter.

 

[SimonsMerc]

Blimey - I'll not be breaking into your house. You sound like a nutter.

Could I also please respectfully ask that you also do not break into my house, for I am also a nutter?

 

[glojo]

bloody leftys...the place is full of work shy ambulance chasing whinging wineing fibbing cheating thieving sub-human low life scum...and thats just the house of commons so no hope for the rest of us

The sad part is when you check and see how many of these very nice people are either lawyers\solicitors or even QC's!

John

 

[mark.t]

don;t you get orrrffff if your a nutter.....and by the way i have a letter from my psychiatrist to say i am sane....do any of you