How do I slate a competitor in a report, without dropping myself in the mire.

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Q "How do I slate a competitor in a report, without dropping myself in the mire."

Answer- very very carefully :(
 
i think i remember what it is that you install .

I've posted a link now. Thanks, derek.

could you invite the manufacturer of the product to inspect and comment on the installation ? If the job is as bad as you say , this could have the additional benefit that the manufacturer might decide they no longer want company x installing their products .

The product would possibly have been manufactured, or bought in by company x. The system is used globally and is very good when manufactured and installed correctly.



another idea might be to get the customer to call in dom little and melinda massager ? Fixed that for you. ;)
...
 
I doubt that the customer will use your report in court, as said by others this does require an independent auditor (which you are clearly not) and has to follow certain guidelines etc etc.

I would imagine that they want this report in order to try and claim some compensation from the previous supplier through direct negotiations.

Ultimately your willingness to help will depend on how important is the customer to you.
 
I doubt that the customer will use your report in court, as said by others this does require an independent auditor (which you are clearly not) and has to follow certain guidelines etc etc.

I would imagine that they want this report in order to try and claim some compensation from the previous supplier through direct negotiations.

Ultimately your willingness to help will depend on how important is the customer to you.

Again I think you are correct but if the client discloses company B's report to company A there is nothing stopping Company A taking direct action against company B and not involving the client

I think again you are correct and the client wants to claim damages against company A using information from Company B and ultimately it is down on how important the client is to company B
 
The installation is incredibly poor by anyones standards

The problem here Paul is what precisely are the laid down standards and who has laid them down? We have all witnessed the work of people who should be working at something else. Do building regulations cover the installation? (in which case a buildings inspector may be the best person to examine the work) Alternatively, you may find that the installation ignores the requirements of fire regulations.

The fact that the installers keep returning to resolve issues is something which demonstrates that the installation is poor. I suspect that if that fact (number of remedial visits) is offered in evidence at the county court, there will not be any need for a formal report. An audit trail covering remedial visits and work completed at each visits, should be more than sufficient to undermine the work of the installation company.


I really couldn't believe what I was seeing when inspecting the works. :crazy:

Yes, of course. People will work to different standards along a spectrum stretching from outstanding all the way to egregious and not fit for payment. Nevertheless, unless your work is covered by a regulating body, the assessment of good or bad work is just a matter of opinion. Your opinion may be well be valid (as an expert in the same field) but the nearer you get to being an expert witness (almost certainly a court case will ensue if the client wants to recoup their costs) for the court, the more you will have to consider any potential conflict of interest. You being awarded any potential remedial work contract is a significant conflict of interest.

Our client would like us to fit-out from scratch, but have asked me to make a report on the original installation, in an attempt to recover some or all of the costs from Company X.

Your client is telling you that your report would lead to them recouping their losses. I would advise you to avoid doing a report that highlights the poor quality of the installation because of your pecuniary interest (being awarded the job) in the outcome of a successful law suit against the original contractors.

The report will be truthful, and because the job by Company X is so ridiculously poor there is certainly no need to over-egg the pudding.

Of course the report would be truthful (this must be a given or else there could be no point to making a report) but you are not the person to write it if you consider what the outcome of a damaging report would be. Your client gets some money back and then hires you on the basis of your written report. You need to keep the client at arm's length so that a complaint of corruption cannot be levelled at you.

So, what can go wrong?

Much. Never assume that appropriate justice is a given. One only gets the law... rather than justice. Your client would do well to find an unknown and independent specialist contractor to assess the work... not from a standpoint of what is wrong with the work already completed badly but from the viewpoint of what it would require to have a new installation done correctly.

The damage to the structure of the building may preclude a new installation without some remedial work on the structure. If there is no structural damage then your client may have to swallow some of the costs and just hire another installation expert (you) without getting you to badmouth the work already done.

0.02p
 
Hi Paul

I would offer my opinion but some may say that's just the Blind leading the Blind.
 
Incidentally... you thread says How do I slate a competitor in a report, without dropping myself in the mire. I read it to say that you have already decided that you want to (or have to) do this, and were just asking advice on how, i.e. not on if...
 
Maybe the best way forward in the short term is to have a chat with the point of contact at Client A to air your concerns before submitting anything in writing.

You will then know which way the wind is blowing before risking committing yourself.

P.S. I think I might know who the end client is.
wink.gif
 
One of our regular clients used a local contractor (Company X) in one of their London branches. This happened because our client (they regularly give us projects up to 100, miles away) thought the installation would be too far afield for us.

The installation is incredibly poor by anyones standards and Company X have returned to site 4-5 times in an attempt to remedy the numerous problems, but without any success at all.
They have tried to modify the product and have butchered the whole job.
Had they had even a small idea of how the product worked, they could have very easily solved the main issue, but instead have taken desperate measures and ruined the whole shooting match.
I really couldn't believe what I was seeing when inspecting the works. :crazy:


Our client would like us to fit-out from scratch, but have asked me to make a report on the original installation, in an attempt to recover some or all of the costs from Company X.

I haven't dealt with this sort of thing before and wondered if there was anything I should know before composing the report. If I could send the report from A.N.Other it wouldn't be so awkward, but having our company name associated with it makes me cautious.

The report will be truthful, and because the job by Company X is so ridiculously poor there is certainly no need to over-egg the pudding.


So, what can go wrong?


TIA.

Paul.

I would not touch this with a ten foot pole. Your excuse to the client as has been said --- potential conflict of interest---- rules you out as independent arbiter-- if they query that-- tell them you have taken professional legal advice and that you are actually doing them a favour by refusing-- assure them of your complete co-operation and assistance with whichever third party they appoint to assess the previous job.
 
Worth looking at this from the client's perspective. I think this is a two stage process. One, get the work done properly. Two, seek any available redress from the people who didn't do it properly the first time.

There are a number of potential options on stage 2, once of which might be to get an independent report. But all that would do is either demonstrate to the original supplier that the work was defective (so they could remedy it), or ultimately act as evidence in court. The original supplier has presumably acknowledged to some extent that the work is substandard, as I think I read above that repairs have been attempted. So the client could also write to the original supplier saying that the work was not up to snuff, repairs have failed, so they have 15 days (or whatever) to remedy or the client will get the work re-done and will claim in the courts (?small claims court) for the cost thereof...on the basis that the original supplier has failed to fulfil their contract. A report might help them here - but only if it was independent.

From Ringway's perspective, I would have thought you could potentially help out with stage one, or stage two. But not both.
 
I doubt that the customer will use your report in court, as said by others this does require an independent auditor (which you are clearly not) and has to follow certain guidelines etc etc.

I would imagine that they want this report in order to try and claim some compensation from the previous supplier through direct negotiations.

Ultimately your willingness to help will depend on how important is the customer to you.

Well the unfortunate truth is that writing any report on the (defective) work of others, especially where there is an actual or even perceived conflict of interest, has to be very carefully drafted and should be reviewed by your own legal representatives.

The reason is simple: your report might not end up in court in the case of A v B but you must assume it will at the very least fall into the hands of both sets of lawyers through the Discovery process. You can very easily get dragged in.

In the worst case can end up as B v You. Seen that happen a few times at work as wholly cynical & non viable threats of action run as spoiler/distraction/intimidation/attrition tactics by some of the less than wholesome companies we have to deal with. Being a very big and very ugly institution it gets shrugged off for what it is and legal costs are not an issue but for small businesses that could represent a real source of concern, worry and cost.

Maybe the best course of action is to give your client a detailed quote for the remediation/refit of a defective installtion that sets out precisely everything that needs to be done to put things right or refit but without commenting on the quality/professionalism of the work to date.

They can then do what they want with that, because it is nothing more than a quote for new work.
 
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Anything you put in writing that is defamatory about another person or business is potentially libel. Even if it is true.

Best course of action is to get someone independent to write a report a report before you commence work, and then to write and addendum to it afterwards. Any surveryor or solicitor should be able to help.

Other than that it should be for those who are party to the contract to sort our between themselves.
 
Anything you put in writing that is defamatory about another person or business is potentially libel. Even if it is true.

I thought something being true was a defence against a charge of slander/libel? Perhaps someone legalish will pop along and put us right :thumb:
 
I thought something being true was a defence against a charge of slander/libel? Perhaps someone legalish will pop along and put us right :thumb:

I am absolutely not a legalish someone. :D I do like to take an interest in many matters legal though.

Writing a formal report that denigrates a company/person and promotes the notion the they are incapable of carrying out a particular service or type of work, is one of the pillars of cases involving slander. No written report should contain any such conclusion because it is unnecessary for the purpose of deciding what further remedial works need to be completed to put matters right. As has been stated elsewhere, the client's losses and the work to be completed are two entirely separate issues and they should be handled as such.
 
Thanks, Lee. That seems to have taken all of the worry out of things. :D

No problem Paul.

I could deliver the speech personally on your behalf. :thumb:
 
I am absolutely not a legalish someone. :D I do like to take an interest in many matters legal though.

Writing a formal report that denigrates a company/person and promotes the notion the they are incapable of carrying out a particular service or type of work, is one of the pillars of cases involving slander. No written report should contain any such conclusion because it is unnecessary for the purpose of deciding what further remedial works need to be completed to put matters right. As has been stated elsewhere, the client's losses and the work to be completed are two entirely separate issues and they should be handled as such.

Done a bit of reading myself in a quiet moment. Firstly, writing a report that denigrates etc... would I believe be libel, not slander, because of the permanent (i.e. written) nature of the statements - though clearly would be unwise to come to general conclusions on someone's ability based on a single example of their work. Secondly, it seems that the accusation being true IS a defence to cases of both slander/libel and defamation. Would still like a legal bod to let us all have a view though!

Agree on the two separate issues - a number of us have pointed this out.
 
Hi Paul
Difficult position to be put in by your client and an awkward situation to deal with.
Having my own business and been called in to put other sparks works right I certainly don't slaughter them as I know most of my competition and dont want to be taken for libel.
Can you guarantee that your client will give you more work as he has already used someone else to his detriment and now looking for you to help him get recourse on a botched job.
Be very careful how you proceed as you are the one who will get the sh+t when it hits the fan as it surely will
Best of luck Donny
:)
 
Why not just write the report in the format of what you had to do to fix the product?

Effectively an invoice detailing your services and what you did.

It solves the issue and avoids any criticism since you are merely detailing a service callout.
 
Done a bit of reading myself in a quiet moment. Firstly, writing a report that denigrates etc... would I believe be libel, not slander, because of the permanent (i.e. written) nature of the statements - though clearly would be unwise to come to general conclusions on someone's ability based on a single example of their work. Secondly, it seems that the accusation being true IS a defence to cases of both slander/libel and defamation. Would still like a legal bod to let us all have a view though!

Agree on the two separate issues - a number of us have pointed this out.

Thank you. :thumb: I had expressed myself badly.

The essence of this issue being that running someone else's work down is clearly negative and it will obviously dissuade others from using their services thereby damaging their business. I believe that in law, spoken words are considered to be a transitory event. Libel is the written form of slander but it is considered to be a permanent record; which carries the implication that what is written is factual. Essentially, the offence is one of defamation.

I believe that libel, when contested, is taken to be the making of malicious and false statements in writing... otherwise it is clear that the plaintiff would have no cause of action by which they can pursue a remedy through the courts. Interestingly, I don't believe that truth is necessarily held to be an adequate defence in some jurisdictions.

Cases will probably turn on whether the libel was a matter of fact or opinion. This is precisely where giving an expert opinion about the work of another practitioner in the same field of endeavour (as the expert providing the report) is fraught with potential harm. I don't think that one person commenting about the work of another, to a third party, is very professional and such opinions should remain private.

This is partly because the commenting person will not have been in possession of all of the facts of the case, nor will they know about the precise conditions which the other person was working under. Poor work speaks for itself and needs no such commentary. Structural damage may require that a report from a chartered surveyor has to be commissioned and refer to all matters (but it won't contain much by way of reference to a cowboy builder/installer of items) which may have affected the integrity or the fabric of the building.

Ringway's dilemma is that he previously had a business relationship with the client who suffered the poor work and he wants to be helpful. In my opinion, the client is (possibly unwittingly) placing him under some obligation to them because of that previous business relationship. Ringway (an astute businessman) does not want to damage his prospects of future work from the client or other local people who are known to the client. His client places him in an invidious position and soliciting a 'free' opinion from Ringway along the lines of... "what do you think" is very likely to push Ringway into publication of his viewpoint to a third party: e.g. The work is bad.

This is the course that Ringway should avoid like he would want to avoid the plague. If his comments are heard by his competitor (and why would his prospective client not repeat them when trying to recoup his losses) then Ringway becomes liable for comments that may fulfil the criteria for defamation. Matters of opinion are not matters for legal argument... matters of fact may well be.
 
Thinking on this, I would probably be happy to provide a factual report (with photos) of the state of works as inspected compared to the state of works had I executed it myself, and then present that to the customer, with an invoice for the inspection, before commencing any further or remedial works.

The customer can then prepare a claim against the original supplier having the facts in front of them, there may be another side to this (customer may have authorised shortcuts or signed to accept the work as completed) after all.

I've been at the receiving end of this on one occasion, where another IT company gave a "free inspection and audit" to one of my small (4 man) business clients. They soon buggered off after a couple of emails stating the facts back from my side and a quiet chat with the customer.
 

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