If AMG went solo?

Niks

MB Enthusiast
Joined
Mar 8, 2008
Messages
1,542
I had a pretty interesting conversation with a customer at work today regarding Mercedes and AMG. I noticed he drove a C63 so I complimented him on the car, from which he was happy that someone actually noticed what it was and not just another C-Class.

We talked about Mercedes and then onto AMG and its history. Parts of our conversation went on about how some mercedes cars and its new AMG versions just dont have that exclusiveness as they once did. From what it seems, that tuners such as Carlsson and Brabus are coming out with much more heavily tuned cars these days compared to AMG. For example with the W212...

AMG E63 - 525bhp
Carlsson E-CK63 RS - 576bhp
Brabus - EV12 - 790bhp

The AMG cars are much more subtle in design compared to that of Brabus and Carlsson.

It made me think, if AMG were still a separate tuner company like before, how different would things be in terms of the cars they would produce to rival Brabus and Carlsson? Has AMG's decision making been hampered and kept on a leash by Mercedes? I personally think they have got too comfortable and taken a back seat now.

Dont get me wrong, im not against AMG but they used to have that complete exclusiveness, especially cars like W124 Hammer. Wasnt that the fastest 186mph saloon back in the day? Just seems things are very different now.

What are the panels thoughts on this subject? :)
 

LTD

MB Enthusiast
SUPPORTER
Joined
May 21, 2009
Messages
5,581
Location
Planet Earth
Car
Yep, one of THOSE !!!
I think AMG make a shedload of money with their tight association with the factory and don't need to push the boundaries to make a statement or selling point.

The others are aftermarket tuners, AMG are considered to be a specialist division now.

The SLS being the case in point.
 

st4

Banned
Joined
Mar 1, 2008
Messages
14,373
Location
In the driving seat
Car
C220cdi tourer
AMG are like BMW M, an inhouse tuning division. Its a good thing for Mercedes for the cars to get a halo AMG model and good for AMG to get to sell the cars through main dealer networks and serviced through full main dealer networks
 

Adam230K

MB Enthusiast
Joined
May 1, 2007
Messages
3,085
Car
German oil burner
...And remember... its not all about horsepower

Brabus got their name because when they put 7xxbhp in an SL and people saw it on top gear all those years ago it had a 'wow' factor. Now everyone is in the tuning game and its not uncommon to see road cars with stupid power under the bonnet.
 

st4

Banned
Joined
Mar 1, 2008
Messages
14,373
Location
In the driving seat
Car
C220cdi tourer
...And remember... its not all about horsepower

Brabus got their name because when they put 7xxbhp in an SL and people saw it on top gear all those years ago it had a 'wow' factor. Now everyone is in the tuning game and its not uncommon to see road cars with stupid power under the bonnet.
Power corrupts past a point.

A car like that will only come into its own above 100mph when the wheels finally stop spinning.
 

d w124

Hardcore MB Enthusiast
Joined
Dec 30, 2008
Messages
12,376
Location
london
Car
w124 3.6AMG styling E320 S124 Lorinser styling
Did he buy anything???You`re on commission you must remember,like to talk cars that`s why we are here
PS:Sorry it took so long to return your call yesterday,lol
 

Will

Hardcore MB Enthusiast
SUPPORTER
Joined
Jan 21, 2003
Messages
11,510
Location
Surrey
Car
GL63 AMG / 190E 2.5-16 / Porsche 911
Let's be honest, Carlsson, Brabus etc and the like have had to up their game - and many of their varients are based upon AMG models anyway.

If they didn't offer more power/performance than the factory AMG models, what would be the point? :eek:

Modern cars are really cheap by comparison, even brand new AMG varients. Compare that to the price of a 124 quad-cam 'hammer' from the 80s, the main reason they were so exclusive and rare was that they were unaffordable.

Even owning a Mercedes was quite unusual and carried some kudos 20 years ago.

Times change and so does the marketplace and car buyers alike.
 

SPX

MB Club Veteran
SUPPORTER
Joined
Aug 29, 2010
Messages
16,295
Location
Yorkshire
Car
That one
We talked about Mercedes and then onto AMG and its history. Parts of our conversation went on about how some mercedes cars and its new AMG versions just dont have that exclusiveness as they once did. From what it seems, that tuners such as Carlsson and Brabus are coming out with much more heavily tuned cars these days compared to AMG. For example with the W212...

AMG E63 - 525bhp
Carlsson E-CK63 RS - 576bhp
Brabus - EV12 - 790bhp

The AMG cars are much more subtle in design compared to that of Brabus and Carlsson.
I see your thinking but to compare the three 'tuners' is a bit unfair.

How much does an E63 cost, as opposed to the Carlsson & Brabus?

The biggest difference between AMGs now and say in the 80s is that it is a lot easier to finance an AMG nowadays, that's why they sell in the numbers that they do. I mean, how many newish AMG owners on here paid readies for their car? Very little, if any.... Whereas the 'Hammer' and the like were very likely to have been bought with cash.
 

Bobby Dazzler

MB Club Veteran
SUPPORTER
Joined
Jan 21, 2005
Messages
16,934
Location
Mittel England
Car
ML AMG-line Black Series
A key difference is that aftermarket tuners make their money from selling parts: tuning kits, wheels, bodykits, etc and might sell a few cars along the way, which means they build promotional vehicles with high power to get them into magazines, etc.

AMG used to do that to, but now makes it's money by selling cars: whole cars, AMG-only cars like the SLS, AMG derivatives based upon mainstream MB models, or MB models with AMG trinkets from the factory.

The reality is that AMG will still build you a C-Class with a V12 too if you want it and are prepared to pay for it, but they don't promote these cars. I wouldn't be surprised if AMG have shoehorned as many V12s into E-Classes as Brabus have.
 

st4

Banned
Joined
Mar 1, 2008
Messages
14,373
Location
In the driving seat
Car
C220cdi tourer
So's Brabus now, really, given the factory Smart Brabuses and the dealers all flogging Brabus parts.
To an extent yes but can you order and service a full brabus car (i.e. CLS rocket) through an MB Dealer.

I suspect Brabus themselves look after the warranty and not every dealer would work on a brabus car
 

wemorgan

MB Enthusiast
Joined
Apr 5, 2008
Messages
8,106
Car
A205 C220d
I'd like to see AMG do a hybrid conversion or make a more track focused car like the RenaultSport division.

Simply adding more bhp model on model will surely have to end at some point.
 

st4

Banned
Joined
Mar 1, 2008
Messages
14,373
Location
In the driving seat
Car
C220cdi tourer
I'd like to see AMG do a hybrid conversion or make a more track focused car like the RenaultSport division.

Simply adding more bhp model on model will surely have to end at some point.
A hybrid coversion?

Folk spending upward on 70k on a car want something more "fun".

The CLK Black was a step in the right direction but the typical Mercedes car tends to appeal to a different audience than a renault sport buyer, i.e. more creature comforts.

However, more focus on lighter weight, and maybe with 4 matic models a switchable diff a la subaru for real entertaining handling.

They had their chance with the C63 amg coupe, proper lightweight seats, standard LSD/ceramic brakes, stripped interior ala 911 may hopefully come.

I've had the priviledge of two passanger runs in a C63.

I still think they are incredably refined and comfortable. There is room for more outlandish cars from that set up
 

wemorgan

MB Enthusiast
Joined
Apr 5, 2008
Messages
8,106
Car
A205 C220d
Other supercar manufacturers are going hybrid why not Mercedes & AMG?

A car with KERS would surely tick the fun box :)
 

st4

Banned
Joined
Mar 1, 2008
Messages
14,373
Location
In the driving seat
Car
C220cdi tourer
Other supercar manufacturers are going hybrid why not Mercedes & AMG?

A car with KERS would surely tick the fun box :)
I know Porsche is at it with the Panamera but hybrids add weight and complexity, it may not add to the fun. Power wise is not the deficiency of an AMG.

They do have

1. Different suspension
2. Different brakes
3. Different steering set ups
4. Different tranmissions. (MCT)

They are quite different to a normal Mercedes. I still think after going in a couple of C63s there is room for more outlandishness (the cars are very quiet and refined even when its booted, enough to let you know there is a V8 up there, but still hushed). However, I guess that is what appeals to the target audience.

Mercedes or AMG have no "mid" engined car, which would give a rather different and maybe more appealing driving experience?
 
OP
OP
Niks

Niks

MB Enthusiast
Joined
Mar 8, 2008
Messages
1,542
Jaguar are taking their 400bhp 1.6 litre concept car into production and will be available for sale in 2013. Its an electric and petrol hybrid so they claim it will do 0-60 mph in 3.5 secs, top speed of 200+mph and still give the fuel economy of a ford fiesta.

At a price of £400,000 i think?

That will cause quite a stir in the industry.
 
OP
OP
Niks

Niks

MB Enthusiast
Joined
Mar 8, 2008
Messages
1,542
Jaguar are taking their 400bhp 1.6 litre concept car into production and will be available for sale in 2013. Its an electric and petrol hybrid so they claim it will do 0-60 mph in 3.5 secs, top speed of 200+mph and still give the fuel economy of a ford fiesta.

At a price of £400,000 i think?

That will cause quite a stir in the industry.
 

KillerHERTZ

Administrator
Staff member
Joined
May 21, 2003
Messages
17,055
Location
Cambridge
Car
CLS63 AMG
...And remember... its not all about horsepower

Brabus got their name because when they put 7xxbhp in an SL and people saw it on top gear all those years ago it had a 'wow' factor. Now everyone is in the tuning game and its not uncommon to see road cars with stupid power under the bonnet.
Brabus didnt get their name/become famous from an episode for TopGear! :wallbash: :wallbash: :wallbash: they have been around since 1978! IIRC

Just because you may not have heard of them until you saw TopGear doesnt mean they didnt exisit!
 
Last edited:

Howard

MB Club Veteran
Joined
Apr 23, 2004
Messages
18,624
Location
Toad Hall
Car
CLS 500 / A 150
Yep , i can remember my dad looking at a Brabus W124 estate around 1990 ish .
 

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 1)

Top Bottom