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If tuners/re-mappers can achieve such amazing gains...

D

Deleted member 37751

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...why don't the manufacturers?

It occurred to me as I was browsing the internet looking to spend money on crap I don't need that how and why are tuning firms and remappers etc able to get such high bhp & mpg gains, yet the manufacturers haven't implemented the same technology?

Don't manufactures spend millions and millions on R & D to find the optimum performance of their cars?
 
It's so they all operate on a balanced, less prone to damage parameters.

They don't play optimum, they play safe. Plenty of horror stories of peoples engines going bang because some backstreet outfit 'mapped it'.

and it's because they engines then come out built to handle all environments i.e low speed driving, high speed, motorway, inner city - as opposed to low end, mid range, high end gains which is each drivers preference when mapping.
 
Also they sell cars with different power outputs of the same engine in higher or lower spec versions of the same model. Neat trick, charge a few grand for a manufacturers remap, which in essence costs sod all to them as against the lower powered version.
 
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This thread will run for a while. :)

I once read that all engines are mapped to take the lowest quality fuel and be able to operate in all conditions. For example it wouldn't make sense to have a Siberia model or Sahara model. Each engine must be able to perform anywhere. (I once got a friendly flaming for writing that).

Extra strain on the gearbox is another problem, especially on an old/high miler.
IIRC, MB guarantee the safety of the Brabus Box up to 60k and yet hold the world record for running the OM642 continuously for 100k miles at an average speed of 139mph. LINK.

The other thing to consider is the exhaust gas temperature becoming too high. I don't profess to fully understand the whole idea of that but I know a man who does...

Cue Dieselman.
 
ringway said:
Cue Dieselman.
Click to expand...

Some say that he knows 2 facts about ducks, and both of them are wrong. And that 61 years ago he accidentally introduced rocket fuel in his tank. All we know is ... he is called The Stig - ehm, sorry The Dieselman :p

Anyhow - throwing my tuppence worth. My understanding is that many mods are pointless - in the category you can put all the putty and fibreglass body kits.

Those which aren't pointless may increase top speed at the cost of acceleration, noise, engine durability, or something else.The manufactures reach a happy middle. Finally, there are also legislations, so the engine will be tuned to emit less CO2 and rev a little less...

Though this is all hearsay from what I've been told, so may be totally wrong...
 
As others said... tuners do not create something out of nothing. They merely change the balance between various parameters.

Power, torque, fuel consumption, emissions reliability, engine wear, fuel quality etc etc...

The manufacturers have their own idea as to the optimal balance, and tuners remap the engine to suit the customer's particular needs.
 
All of the above plus:

How proven are the BHP figures- and real-world performance benefit (e.g. does the BHP hike come at the expense of peakier, less flexible, torque profile- and can the configuration of the mated autobox best exploit it?)

How proven are the mpg gains (then again, how proven are the original manuf's figures...)
 
Tuning is good for those who have not had it done to their cars.

Example 1. M3 Evolution. Re-mapped and full stainless exhaust + headers and a bag of other stuff. Blackbush Airport. Me that looks nice. Him. Watch this.

Lots of revs.

Clutch out.

BOOM. Load of smoke with oil pouring onto ground.

Me. I'm off home now its cold here and starting to rain.

Example 2. Toyota Supra, with loads of Blitz tuning Mods.

Bekton Gas Works (long time ago)

Me. That looks nice.

Him. Watch this.

Loads of revs.

Wheel spin.

BOOM. Smoke, puddle of oil.

Me. I'm off now. Ta ta.


Morale of the story is:

Performance modding takes your stock engine to a level of performance that can (and often is) knife edge between fun and wallet.

Manufacturer stock tuning is designed to allow for reliability within the published specs of the engine/car.

So if you fit a mahoosive great blower on your engine be prepared for the fact that the blower is ignorant of your drive train being made from bendy bits.
 
Are the car manufacturers missing a trick though?

Lets take an E350 CDI with 265 bhp for example; instead of offering a three year warranty on it standard, they could offer a two year warranty instead but the car will come with 320 bhp or something?

One of my friends had a mapped 535d and he mashed two gearboxes in two years, but he was bizarrely quite happy to pay that price for the gains.
 
Also... remapping can be beneficial when done in order to accommodate for other hardware mods, such as improved free-flow exhaust (too loud and to high emission to be installed by manufacturer), etc.
 
SPX said:
Are the car manufacturers missing a trick though?

Lets take an E350 CDI with 265 bhp for example; instead of offering a three year warranty on it standard, they could offer a two year warranty instead but the car will come with 320 bhp or something?

One of my friends had a mapped 535d and he mashed two gearboxes in two years, but he was bizarrely quite happy to pay that price for the gains.
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I suppose they could... if they thought there would be a market for it. Not sure how many car owners like your friend are there ...
 
Having owned three Toyota Celica GT4 Turbo's, all of which were UK build cars and owned by me since new. I got to know some of the TRD and Toyota UK race guys well.

I was told that the cost of developing and building these cars was prohibitive. One had a clutch fail (manufacturing defect). To replace the clutch the front suspension, and steering had to be removed. Then the engine and gearbox were lifted out.

These were homologation cars built to ensure there rally cars were deemed to be production models. Best fun you could have with your trousers on.

Would I want to own them today with their now aging running costs. NO.
 
There's always a performance vs durability trade off for manufacturers.

For example, the Brabus chip is only offered by MB on cars up to 60K, so I assume MB feel, in the longer term, there could be issues.

Consider the more frequent service schedules of higher performance cars - the higher tuned EVO (FQ400??) being an example, where it can only to a few K (as I recall) before needing main dealer attention.
 
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A remap will improve acceleration and increase top speed, give a massive boost in fuel economy and the car will be so smooth you'll think you are driving on a billiard table. Add to that, it will also make your DPF last for ever (even if eternally pottering around town) and will cause incredibly fit women to want to have your babies.

All for a mere £350. I don't know how we do it for the money.

Our next evolution will make your tyres puncture proof and make the exhaust smell so good you can chuck away that air freshener tree dangling from the mirror.

If I had a ten year old car, worth peanuts and I knew the end of the world was nigh, I'd probably have a cheap remap just for a laugh and to give me a better chance of outrunning the tsunami from the asteroid. Anything else, I'd just buy the proper car in the first place.
 
There is also the rare case when the manufacturer gets it totally and utterly wrong - I'm not aware of any specific examples in the car world, but it's happened a few times on 2 wheelers.

After 18 months of messing around with Ducati to get the fuelling right on my MTS, I gave up and had it mapped properly (gained an extra 15hp to boot but that wasn't my intention) so that it doesn't lurch, hiccup, stall when you close the throttle or run so rich you'd think it was about to catch fire. I'm not the only one.
 
SPX said:
Don't manufactures spend millions and millions on R & D to find the optimum performance of their cars?
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You must first define "optimum"

For the manufacturer "optimum" on a standard production model is defined as "minimum emissions and maximum fuel economy" that is required to meet the average standards of the country that the car will be sold.
This standard doesn't always afford the best performance.

If a manufacturer also has a performance model such as Merc with AMG, then they are tuned with a performance bias at the expense of "optimum" emissions and economy.
 
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RBYCC said:
You must first define "optimum"
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As in optimum for that model.

For example I've seen reported Eurocharged gains on a C63 N/A of circa 70+bhp, if that is genuinely possible then why didn't Mercedes do it from the start? Or at least offer that variance of power outputs?
 
Because as already stated they have design / environmental engineered tolerances that are specified during any new model development, design failure mode effect analysis (DFMEA) process identify the risks during OEM advanced design planning, they do NOT want warranty issues and reports of poor quality failing cars, hence they work within the safe specified boundary and known risk for the engine, gearbox, power-train etc etc

Why do you think that dealers don't offer re-maps? lets be honest its big business and money to be made, the OEM would also state that such modifications will reduce life expectancy of mechanical component's, add risk, and impact the enjoyment of the model.


SPX said:
As in optimum for that model.

For example I've seen reported Eurocharged gains on a C63 N/A of circa 70+bhp, if that is genuinely possible then why didn't Mercedes do it from the start? Or at least offer that variance of power outputs?
Click to expand...
 
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