Intruder taken out...

[MOCAŠ]

I expect that none of us would want the blood of another person on our hands unless absolutely necessary.

The worrying thing is that several people on this and other threads seem to be demonstrating a form of bloodlust for intruders, rioters and other miscreants, although I suppose that could just be bravado.

 

[MOCAŠ]

Mocas: I'm quite impressed by how many of my "exploits" you remember! That water tank was years ago!

I'm sure it's been mentioned recently...

 

[MOCAŠ]

Bushcraft has nothing to do with spells... Bushcraft is about...

...a caring and understanding other half ... and the sofa...)

Ahem!

 

[Mr E]

The worrying thing is that several people on this and other threads seem to be demonstrating a form of bloodlust for intruders, rioters and other miscreants, although I suppose that could just be bravado.

I would hope it's the latter.

Personal experience has been that there is an inverse relationship between vocal bloodlust performance. In other words, it the quiet ones you need to worry about!

 

[nick mercedes]

The worrying thing is that several people on this and other threads seem to be demonstrating a form of bloodlust for intruders, rioters and other miscreants, although I suppose that could just be bravado.

If anyone broke into my house, I'd shoot him with the howitzer I keep under the bed, chop him up with the samurai sword and fling the remains in the trommel I keep on the patio for just such an occasion....etc

 

[Spinal]

Often the concepts of Ability, Opportunity and Jeopardy are looked at when determining whether a course of action was acceptable or excessive.

Ability - the person has the ability (either through physical strength, training, or weapons) to put you at risk of death or injury.

Opportunity - the person has the opportunity to put their ability to effect.

Jeopardy - the person's actions or words provide you with a reasonable belief that your person is in danger.

Working through Ability and Opportunity is quite easy. A person waving a baseball bat 25m away, shouting "I'm going to kill you", doesn't give you an adequate defense. They have ability, but no opportunity (they're not close enough and are not moving toward you). Change it to 10m away and walking towards you, and it's then a different matter.

Jeopardy is more difficult. Feeling threatened is not an adequate defense. I'm sure we all know people who look really nasty types but are actually nothing like that - looks can be unfortunate. Jeopardy is often established by verbal communication ("hand over your wallet or I'll stab you") but can also be established by actions (walking toward you, eyes engaged, weapon in hand).

We also have rules about having weapons to hand - it could certainly alter the perspective of a court to the jeopardy aspect of a defense.

At the end of the day, I expect that none of us would want the blood of another person on our hands unless absolutely necessary. Although reasonably confident of my technical ability to take somebody down, I certainly wouldn't "volunteer" to risk my life for the sake of a few possessions. I would hazard a guess that 9 intruders out of 10 would run if disturbed; would I be happy to risk myself (and others) unnecessarily with a person who is minded to stay and scrap it out?

(I would love to know who has put certain tags up )

Mr E: Well put, that said, I'm curious...

How does one assess ability, opportunity and jeopardy from upstairs when you hear someone downstairs breaking in? (or in my case, in your bedroom tripping over an old computer I was taking apart?)

It's dark, you can't see if they are armed or not. They assume you are asleep upstairs, so there is no verbal communication.

As they make their way up the stairs, do you sit there assessing the moron's ability based on the noise hit feet make, or do you do something about it?

I've been lucky never to have had to confront an armed burglar; when I lived in West Africa (mainly Gambia, but also Senegal and Ghana) the routine practice was to have guard dogs in the garden at night and a shotgun in every bedroom bar the childrens... i.e. mine. My grandmother, who was tiny, frail and quite honestly... your typical grandma... had a revolver of some sort.

When we had a break-in in London, I woke up with the burglar at the feet of my bed (literally). Luckily, he chose to leave the house very quickly, which meant there was no confrontation and I didn't have to make any difficult decisions. (I followed him to the door then locked the door they had picked to get-in in case you're wondering...).

Had it come down to a confrontation, what "should" I have done from a legal perspective? Telephone is downstairs, mobile is on my desk - both out of reach to call the cops (and I hazard to say too slow with the chap at the feet of your bed). Did he have the ability? Who knows - it was dark and I was half asleep. Opportunity? Probably....

Honestly, I quite like the american system where if someone enters your property without your permission they're game (an obvious oversimplification, with it's own issues... but hey).

EDIT: Nick - I do believe samurai swords are now illegal in the UK Unless you're part of a dojo or a theater group... or something like that...

M.

 

[nick mercedes]

(Honestly, I quite like the american system where if someone enters your property without your permission they're game

"Hattori and Haymaker rang the front doorbell but, seemingly receiving no response, began to walk back to their car. Meanwhile, inside the house, their arrival had not gone unnoticed. Bonnie Peairs had peered out the side door and saw them. Mrs. Peairs, startled, retreated inside, locked the door, and said to her husband, "Rodney, get your gun." Hattori and Haymaker were walking to their car when the carport door was opened again, this time by Mr. Peairs. He was armed with a loaded and cocked .44 magnum revolver. He pointed it at Hattori, and yelled "Freeze." Simultaneously, Hattori, likely thinking he said "please," stepped back towards the house, saying "We're here for the party." Haymaker, seeing the weapon, shouted after Hattori, but Peairs fired his weapon at point blank range at Hattori, hitting him in the chest, and then ran back inside. (Kernodle 2002; Fujio 2004; Harper n.d.) Haymaker rushed to Hattori, badly wounded and lying where he fell, on his back. Haymaker ran to the home next door to the Peairs' house for help. Neither Mr. Peairs nor his wife came out of their house until the police arrived, about 40 minutes after the shooting. Mrs. Peairs shouted to a neighbor to "go away" when the neighbor called for help. One of Peairs' children later told police that her mother asked, "Why did you shoot him?"

The shot had pierced the upper and lower lobes of Hattori's left lung, and exited through the area of the seventh rib; he died in the ambulance minutes later, from loss of blood"

"The trial lasted seven days"

"Peairs was acquitted"

 

[E CLASS]

Ultimately... it is down to 'use of reasonable force'.

We do not always agree as to what constitutes reasonable force, but at both extremes it is actually easier to agree on - on one hand, blocking the exit of an unarmed intruder then stabbing him to death is not reasonable force, while on the other stabbing an intruder with his own knife after he attempts to stab the homeowner, is.

Tony Martin, incidentally, was sent to prison because he shot at the buglers while they were trying to escape.

Tony Martin (farmer) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I think he gave them a good peppering in the BACK - that was his mistake....

 

[E CLASS]

(I would love to know who has put certain tags up )

Mr E: Well put, that said, I'm curious...

How does one assess ability, opportunity and jeopardy from upstairs when you hear someone downstairs breaking in? (or in my case, in your bedroom tripping over an old computer I was taking apart?)

It's dark, you can't see if they are armed or not. They assume you are asleep upstairs, so there is no verbal communication.

As they make their way up the stairs, do you sit there assessing the moron's ability based on the noise hit feet make, or do you do something about it?

I've been lucky never to have had to confront an armed burglar; when I lived in West Africa (mainly Gambia, but also Senegal and Ghana) the routine practice was to have guard dogs in the garden at night and a shotgun in every bedroom bar the childrens... i.e. mine. My grandmother, who was tiny, frail and quite honestly... your typical grandma... had a revolver of some sort.

When we had a break-in in London, I woke up with the burglar at the feet of my bed (literally). Luckily, he chose to leave the house very quickly, which meant there was no confrontation and I didn't have to make any difficult decisions. (I followed him to the door then locked the door they had picked to get-in in case you're wondering...).

Had it come down to a confrontation, what "should" I have done from a legal perspective? Telephone is downstairs, mobile is on my desk - both out of reach to call the cops (and I hazard to say too slow with the chap at the feet of your bed). Did he have the ability? Who knows - it was dark and I was half asleep. Opportunity? Probably....

Honestly, I quite like the american system where if someone enters your property without your permission they're game (an obvious oversimplification, with it's own issues... but hey).

EDIT: Nick - I do believe samurai swords are now illegal in the UK Unless you're part of a dojo or a theater group... or something like that...

M.

You should have sprung up,rolled him in the duvet and then battered the hell out of him!

 

[Mr E]

(I would love to know who has put certain tags up )

Mr E: Well put, that said, I'm curious...

How does one assess ability, opportunity and jeopardy from upstairs when you hear someone downstairs breaking in? (or in my case, in your bedroom tripping over an old computer I was taking apart?)

It's dark, you can't see if they are armed or not. They assume you are asleep upstairs, so there is no verbal communication.

As they make their way up the stairs, do you sit there assessing the moron's ability based on the noise hit feet make, or do you do something about it?

I've been lucky never to have had to confront an armed burglar; when I lived in West Africa (mainly Gambia, but also Senegal and Ghana) the routine practice was to have guard dogs in the garden at night and a shotgun in every bedroom bar the childrens... i.e. mine. My grandmother, who was tiny, frail and quite honestly... your typical grandma... had a revolver of some sort.

When we had a break-in in London, I woke up with the burglar at the feet of my bed (literally). Luckily, he chose to leave the house very quickly, which meant there was no confrontation and I didn't have to make any difficult decisions. (I followed him to the door then locked the door they had picked to get-in in case you're wondering...).

Had it come down to a confrontation, what "should" I have done from a legal perspective? Telephone is downstairs, mobile is on my desk - both out of reach to call the cops (and I hazard to say too slow with the chap at the feet of your bed). Did he have the ability? Who knows - it was dark and I was half asleep. Opportunity? Probably....

Honestly, I quite like the american system where if someone enters your property without your permission they're game (an obvious oversimplification, with it's own issues... but hey).

EDIT: Nick - I do believe samurai swords are now illegal in the UK Unless you're part of a dojo or a theater group... or something like that...

M.

The usual advice is to make a lot of noise, and turn the lights on - chances are they'll scarper anyway.

Your personal experience is difficult - the law doesn't expect anyone to sit there and work things out as there is always the element of what is "reasonable". The thing that may work against you is if you pulled out the 12-bore you had in bed with you and let the intruder have both barrels...

The person may have had the ability - if he was a big chap and you're wrapped up in bed then he'd have the ability to do you harm. That may also give him the opportunity, plus the physical proximity. Jeopardy would be more difficult.

As I said, it's a principle rather than a defined "checklist".

WRT the instances from the US, there are probably only a handful of states where that could have happened (the person being aquitted). Most states have the "AOJ" principle enshrined in statute (as opposed to common law) regardless of where someone is standing on your property or not.

 

[grober]

My guess that this was not a straightforward breaking and entering which has been "discovered" by the occupier but a "vehicle hijacking" gone wrong. Because of better high end vehicle security thieves tend to focus on stealing vehicle keys from the owner first and drive the vehicle away. They do this by stealth or by intimidation of the vehicle owner's house occupants. Whether they were after the high end cars or the contents of the transit van [ another getaway van just round the corner??] is of course a subject for conjecture but the final fatal assault may have been preceded by some rather nasty scenes of intimidation predisposing the house occupier to respond as he did.

 

[Nik_Endeavour]

Yes, I understood America was out of the question if you had a criminal record, which you wouldn't have if you were arrested and released without charge - which I imagine will be the case here unless, as you say, something else crops up which proves otherwise...

Actually it is semi true. On my US Immigration application it does ask specifically for any arrests even if you were not charged afterwards. Which sucks because now the guy has to explain himself to US authorities if he ever wanted to go over there. Might not be much of an inconvenience but why has an innocent man has to go through it if he has done nothing wrong (if released without charge).

Not to mention that his fingerprints and DNA are forever in the biggest DNA database in the world.

 

[markjay]

Actually it is semi true. On my US Immigration application it does ask specifically for any arrests even if you were not charged afterwards. Which sucks because now the guy has to explain himself to US authorities if he ever wanted to go over there. Might not be much of an inconvenience but why has an innocent man has to go through it if he has done nothing wrong (if released without charge).

Not to mention that his fingerprints and DNA are forever in the biggest DNA database in the world.

You mention 'Immigration application' - so surely this only applies to him if he actually intends to immigrate to the US, meaning that as long as he travels as a tourist he should be fine - so not really a major inconvenience then?

 

[markjay]

OK, so the question here is can you legally shoot a burglar?

The answer is err... no. Not in the UK anyway.

Good. That settles that then. Next question?

PS - to prevent further questions on the same subject: (a) the above also covers looters, rioters, pikeys, as well as any generally undesirable people you can think of, including those with whose sexual orientation, religion convictions, or political opinions you disagree with, and (b) this includes not only shooting, but also stabbing, strangling, burning, hanging, quartering, stoning, impaling, or any other method of execution that you can think of.

 

[neilrr]

If you put yourself in harm's way you're going to get harmed sometimes / eventually.

 

[Nik_Endeavour]

You mention 'Immigration application' - so surely this only applies to him if he actually intends to immigrate to the US, meaning that as long as he travels as a tourist he should be fine - so not really a major inconvenience then?

Hence my later sentence "Might not be much of an inconvenience ...."

I was trying to point out though that a perfectly innocent man (until proven otherwise) can be punished for no reason.

Add to this his profiling and DNA and fingerprint records. Why should he?

 

[Spinal]

OK, so the question here is can you legally shoot a burglar?

The answer is err... no. Not in the UK anyway.

Good. That settles that then. Next question?

PS - to prevent further questions on the same subject: (a) the above also covers looters, rioters, pikeys, as well as any generally undesirable people you can think of, including those with whose sexual orientation, religion convictions, or political opinions you disagree with, and (b) this includes not only shooting, but also stabbing, strangling, burning, hanging, quartering, stoning, impaling, or any other method of execution that you can think of.

Next question... can an intruder sue you for injuring himself on your property?

M.

 

[MOCAŠ]

Next question... can an intruder sue you for injuring himself on your property?

M.

Hmm, define intruder. I'd imagine if someone fell into one of your booby traps while walking up the path to your door, they'd have a case against you (assuming they hadn't drowned in the process...).

 

[Spinal]

Hmm, define intruder. I'd imagine if someone fell into one of your booby traps while walking up the path to your door, they'd have a case against you (assuming they hadn't drowned in the process...).

I was thinking of something I read a while back (possibly an urban legend) on a burglar who sued for tripping on a loose carpet as he made his way through a victims house...

EDIT: Reading around, seems like Occupier’s Liability Act 1984 would allow a burglar to sue if he got injured on your property... including if he got hurt on barbed wire...

EDIT2: Just read this, made me chuckle...
In 1995, Robert Lee Brock, a Virginia prison inmate, decided to take a new approach to the legal system. After filing a number of unsuccessful lawsuits against the prison system, Brock sued himself. He claimed his civil rights and religious beliefs were violated when he allowed himself to get drunk. After all, it was inebriation that created his cycle of committing crimes and being incarcerated. He demanded $5 million from himself. However, since he didn't earn an income behind bars, he felt the state should pay. Needless to say, the case was thrown out.
M.

 

[markjay]

Next question... can an intruder sue you for injuring himself on your property?

M.

It can happen... intruder walks in, you aim your legally held 12-guage Beretta shotgun at him, you talk him down, then pour some VSOP for both of you, have a chat with him, talk to him about his depraved childhood, then tell him about your own childhood, about your time in Burma with RA 69th Light Anti-Aircraft Regiment, the 60', about the coal miner's strike, the Falkland war (of course you were old for active service by then)... intruder struggles with you, snatches your shotgun, then shoots himself in the head... intruder is injured but survives and sues you. Yes, it can happen.