I've been sold a lemon, 450SL 1979

[RaceDiagnostics]

Ok, not only has it got no compression in cylinder 8, I went looking for the engine number, which is very difficult to see as its down the back by the bulkhead and here is what I found.

116 984 x22x00xx.... , there may have been other numbers.

It is a 350, any way to tell its age?

Also anyone know the legal position on this as it was advertised and sold as a 450SL.

From the US Haynes manual I have it looks like the two engines are virtually identical except for the conrod length, anyone have any knowledge of this?

Cheers
Jim

 

[NISFAN]

Was it bought from a dealer?

If you check this link out, it shows the stroke of the 450 as being longer. Makes sense as a means of increasing capacity. Long stroke will also increase torque. 350 is an older engine too.

Mercedes-Benz R107 and C107 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[RaceDiagnostics]

Private sale advertised as a 450.

 

[LTD]

Sorry to hear this.

Maybe it's worth calling the seller first ? They may be willing to refund.

Failing that it's either Trading Standards or court. They have breached DVLA guidlines if they knew of it

 

[Nibbo]

What does the log book say?

 

[RaceDiagnostics]

Log book says

"Engine number 117 985 220 460 61"

Clearly not what is in the car now.

 

[grober]

Ok, not only has it got no compression in cylinder 8, I went looking for the engine number, which is very difficult to see as its down the back by the bulkhead and here is what I found.

116 984 x22x00xx.... , there may have been other numbers.

It is a 350, any way to tell its age?

Also anyone know the legal position on this as it was advertised and sold as a 450SL.

From the US Haynes manual I have it looks like the two engines are virtually identical except for the conrod length, anyone have any knowledge of this?

Cheers
Jim

First thing what does the registration document say it is? The engine number [ original?] should be on there as well. Its possible the previous owner didn't know of any engine swap- unless they did it?

 

[RaceDiagnostics]

First thing what does the registration document say it is? The engine number [ original?] should be on there as well. Its possible the previous owner didn't know of any engine swap- unless they did it?

See above, the log book shows the original engine. Does ignorance excuse the previous owner from misrepresentation of the sale?

I'll call the dvla and trading standards tomorrow.

 

[grober]

Sorry didn't read that. Not sure what rights you have since it was a private sale.

 

[NISFAN]

Private sale = Sold as seen????

 

[grober]

THIS from the very useful citizens advice bureau site Buying secondhand vehicles implies you may have rights but it may be difficult to assert them.

You bought the vehicle from a private seller

You have very few legal rights if you have bought the vehicle from a private seller rather than a dealer.
The vehicle doesn't have to be of satisfactory quality. However, if the seller offers a description of the vehicle, it must match the description given. It must also be roadworthy and the seller must have 'good title' to the vehicle. This means that they must be the legal owner in order to sell it to you.
If the vehicle doesn't match the description given, you may be entitled to compensation. You may also be entitled to compensation if you have bought an unroadworthy car from a private seller, which has caused injury to someone. However, it may be especially difficult to get compensation from a private seller.

You will only be able to claim against a private seller for one of the following reasons:

* the vehicle doesn't match the description they gave you
* the seller broke a specific contract term
* the seller was actually a dealer posing as a private seller
* the seller did not have good title to the vehicle
* the vehicle is unroadworthy.

The vehicle doesn't match its description

If you can show that the vehicle did not match the description the seller gave you, you will have a claim against them, even if the seller believed the description to be true. It will strengthen your claim if you have written proof of the false description, for example, a newspaper advertisement. A false description which was only made verbally and not in writing will be much harder to prove, unless someone else was present who can act as a witness.

If the seller said something about the car which proves not to be true, for example, if they said that the vehicle had a new clutch or one owner from new, you will also have a claim against them. However, if the seller described the vehicle as in good condition, it will be more difficult to complain as the vehicle’s age, make and mileage, and the price you paid all have to be taken into account. If the seller did not say anything at all about the vehicle, you will not be able to claim against the seller.

If the seller sold you the vehicle as having an MOT certificate when it didn't really have one, you will have a claim against the seller.

If you want to take action against the seller because they gave you a false description of the vehicle or said something about it that wasn't true, you will need proof that the seller did this at the time of sale. If you have delayed for more than a few weeks or have used the vehicle a lot, this may be almost impossible to prove. An independent report may be able to establish the condition of the vehicle at the time it was sold, but this can be expensive.

If you want to complain about the vehicle not matching its description or the seller telling you something about the vehicle that isn't true, you should complain in writing to the seller. Ask them for a refund or for the cost of any repairs, depending on what you want them to do. If this does not succeed, your only other option is to take the seller to court. However, you should bear in mind that it can be especially difficult to get any compensation from a private seller.


The seller broke a specific contract term

If the seller fails to do something they specifically agreed to, for example, fix certain faults or that the vehicle would have an MOT, they will have broken their contract with you and you will have a claim against them.

If you want to complain about the seller breaking their contract, you should complain in writing to the seller. Ask them for a refund or for the cost of any repairs, depending on what you want them to do. If this does not succeed, your only other option is to take the seller to court. However, you should bear in mind that it can be especially difficult to get any compensation from a private seller.


The seller was a dealer posing as a private seller

Dealers sometimes pretend to be private sellers, by using the small ads and a private address and telephone number. It is an unfair commercial practice and a criminal offence to do this. If you suspect that the person who sold the vehicle was a dealer posing as a private seller, you should report the dealer to Consumer Direct on 0845 404 0506, or visit


it does not mean that you can cancel the sale. But it does mean that you have the same legal protection as when you buy from a dealer. You may be able to take legal action against them if there are problems with the vehicle that can't be sorted out.

The seller did not have good title to the vehicle

In some cases, you might find that the seller did not have good title to the vehicle. This means that they are not the real legal owner of the vehicle and so were not entitled to sell it. This might be because:

* the vehicle is still on a hire purchase, conditional sale, leasing agreement or is subject to a logbook loan and is therefore owned by the finance company
* the vehicle has been stolen from it's rightful owner.


The vehicle is unroadworthy

If the vehicle is unroadworthy, the seller may have committed a criminal offence and you should report them to Consumer Direct on 0845 404 0506 or at: [url=http://www.consumerdirect.gov.uk]

Fraud in private sales

Most methods of payment in a private sale put the seller at risk of fraud or theft. Keeping the registration certificate (logbook) until a cheque has cleared does not provide any security for the seller, because the logbook is not proof of ownership. To be sure of payment, the seller can ask for cash or they can contact their bank or building society to discuss ways of payment which guarantee the money.
If the seller insists on holding on to the vehicle until a cheque has cleared, you should get a receipt which gives details of the vehicle and the name and address of the seller.

HOPE THIS HELPS A BIT?

 

[arkamelis]

sounds abit unfair to me, i think the seller should refund you has its not the real mc coy.

 

[219]

It seems very odd to me that a vehicle has to be roadworthy .

I've both bought and sold plenty of vehicles either as restoration projects or spares cars that were by no stretch of the imagination roadworthy ( sometimes incomplete or no runners too ) without any legal repercussions - yet the wording of the passage above would make it seem as though this was not legal .

As long as both buyer and seller know what is changing hands , it should not be a problem .

In Jim's case it could be very hard to prove as both engines look to all intents and purposes identical , seller only has to say he sold it 'in good faith' and not a lot you can do to disprove it .

Best course of action would be a reasonable approach and see if he would either take vehicle back amicably or a partial refund due to discrepancy .

 

[219]

If you are stuck with the car , here is someone breaking a 450SLC with an allegedly 'good' engine . He has been trading a while and , as far as I know , is reputable .

SLPAGODA.COM

 

[trapperjohn]

I have used this guy. He is very good and has a yard full of Mercedes.

He gets a thumbs up from me.

 

[grober]

It seems very odd to me that a vehicle has to be roadworthy .

I've both bought and sold plenty of vehicles either as restoration projects or spares cars that were by no stretch of the imagination roadworthy ( sometimes incomplete or no runners too ) without any legal repercussions - yet the wording of the passage above would make it seem as though this was not legal .

As long as both buyer and seller know what is changing hands , it should not be a problem .

.

Derek I think what was meant was that the vehicle was sold as roadworthy when it wasn't actually safe. You could classify this under the vehicle doesn't match the description section but obviously the CAB chose to list it separately perhaps because it was a criminal offence due to personal danger to life?? If both seller and buyer are aware of the cars non roadworthy condition and the sale takes place on that basis there is no problem. However as a seller under these circumstances I would want written confirmation from the buyer the car was sold with that proviso understood just to protect oneself from any subsequent consequences should the worst happen. [ this might also be met by a clearly worded advert but best to be on the safe side??]

 

[nick mercedes]

Also anyone know the legal position on this as it was advertised and sold as a 450SL

From what I can see you brought a 31 year old car with issues, privatly, 5 months ago?

Perhaps buying a used engine might be the best option?

 

[Colin_b]

From what I can see you brought a 31 year old car with issues, privatly, 5 months ago?

Perhaps buying a used engine might be the best option?

This is probably the best approach. Trying to get the money back from a seller is going to be a painful (and possibly expensive) process unless the seller co-operates.

Take the opportunity to install a first class engine.

 

[wobbly]

From what I can see you brought a 31 year old car with issues, privatly, 5 months ago?

Caveat emptor !

 

[MarkJunedd]

Personnaly I dont think you would have any recourse on the seller. Its a 31 yr old car so who knows when the engine was changed? Could have have happened 20 years ago realistically. Its a lovely looking motor so I would put a different lump in it and enjoy it.