Tonygw
MB Enthusiast
James is an avid supporter of Hydrogen fueled cars. They make a lot of sense (once we learn how to mass produce hydrogen cleanly and cost effectively of course)
There is hope yet...
James mays new car
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James is an avid supporter of Hydrogen fueled cars. They make a lot of sense (once we learn how to mass produce hydrogen cleanly and cost effectively of course)
There is hope yet...
NJSS
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Toyota Mirai Design Premium Pack
Price: £64,995
Engine: Single electric motor
Energy store: Polymer electrolyte fuel cell plus lithium ion battery
Power/torque: 180bhp/300Nm
Transmission: Single speed, rear-wheel drive
0-62mph: 9.0 seconds
Top speed: 108mph
Claimed range: 400 miles
If there were more H2 filling stations I would be very tempted.
In 3 or 4 years I may even be driving a Mirai or something similar
Price: £64,995
Engine: Single electric motor
Energy store: Polymer electrolyte fuel cell plus lithium ion battery
Power/torque: 180bhp/300Nm
Transmission: Single speed, rear-wheel drive
0-62mph: 9.0 seconds
Top speed: 108mph
Claimed range: 400 miles
If there were more H2 filling stations I would be very tempted.
In 3 or 4 years I may even be driving a Mirai or something similar
Flyinspanner
MB Enthusiast
Go buy a lovely W215 CL500 for £5k.
that leaves £60k for fuel.
and there’s plenty of fuelling stations.
that leaves £60k for fuel.
and there’s plenty of fuelling stations.
NJSS
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Tonygw
MB Enthusiast
Yes I would buy one in a heart beat if the infrastructure was there. Its a no brainer since you refuel like a regular ICE car, no painful planning of trips and charge points and re-routes etc from a battery car. No painful waits for the car to charge while your life ebbs away.
Just get in drive and when you need to refuel, do so in a few minutes and carry on.
Hydrogen is the most abundant gas in the universe, we would never run out.. Petrol, lithium etc isnt..
Just get in drive and when you need to refuel, do so in a few minutes and carry on.
Hydrogen is the most abundant gas in the universe, we would never run out.. Petrol, lithium etc isnt..
Do the eco bores not realise 95% of hydrogen is made from fossil fuels. Yep May's car is powered by coal 
Tonygw
MB Enthusiast
That's just not true at all.Do the eco bores not realise 95% of hydrogen is made from fossil fuels. Yep May's car is powered by coal
You can make the stuff yourself at home if you like its very easy using electrolysis, two electrodes, water, carbonate and a DC source (12V car battery works fine)
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But make sure you leave the window open and don't spark up while you're doing it
Tonygw
MB Enthusiast
LOL good advice ;-)
NJSS
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What makes hydrogen clean depends on how it's made.
The vast majority of the hydrogen used today, "gray" hydrogen, is produced using fossil fuels, emitting carbon dioxide in the process.
"Blue" hydrogen is made using natural gas and then capturing the carbon dioxide emissions, making it cleaner than gray hydrogen.
However, carbon-free "green" hydrogen is made using electricity to split the hydrogen molecules from oxygen molecules in water.
The byproduct after hydrogen combustion is water.
As demand increases there will be a greater percentage of green & blue hydrogen - I'm happy to contribute to that demand.
NJSS
The vast majority of the hydrogen used today, "gray" hydrogen, is produced using fossil fuels, emitting carbon dioxide in the process.
"Blue" hydrogen is made using natural gas and then capturing the carbon dioxide emissions, making it cleaner than gray hydrogen.
However, carbon-free "green" hydrogen is made using electricity to split the hydrogen molecules from oxygen molecules in water.
The byproduct after hydrogen combustion is water.
As demand increases there will be a greater percentage of green & blue hydrogen - I'm happy to contribute to that demand.
NJSS
That's just not true at all.
You can make the stuff yourself at home if you like its very easy using electrolysis, two electrodes, water, carbonate and a DC source (12V car battery works fine)
"As of 2020, the majority of hydrogen (∼95%) is produced from fossil fuels by steam reforming of natural gas, partial oxidation of methane, and coal gasification"
Tonygw
MB Enthusiast
where did you read that out of interest? The internet is full of these kind of claims? often unsubstantiated..
raspy
Active Member
@Tonygw Unlikely to happen at scale for passenger cars in a meaningful way. Trucks, possibly, but not passenger cars. Both VW & Daimler have abandoned their research into hydrogen cars.
Have you seen the energy losses associated with hydrogen as a fuel for cars? EVs are far more efficient in that respect, by a factor of 3!
Tonygw
MB Enthusiast
I respectfully disagree, Toyota as still bigger than VW and they are heavily invested in it. As are others
Efficiency aside they still have a long way to go to convince people Battery cars work in the real world, Hydrogen easily could work as a direct replacement for the ICE cars once the economies of scale are sorted.
ICE cars are hugely inefficient but we adopted those on mass.
From a consumer stand point it would be far easier to adopt to hydrogen power than battery.
Efficiency aside they still have a long way to go to convince people Battery cars work in the real world, Hydrogen easily could work as a direct replacement for the ICE cars once the economies of scale are sorted.
ICE cars are hugely inefficient but we adopted those on mass.
From a consumer stand point it would be far easier to adopt to hydrogen power than battery.
Bellow
Hardcore MB Enthusiast
How far do you intend driving to re-fuel? The universe is a big place.
Yep, a doddle. Separating the hydrogen and the oxygen - not such a doddle.That's just not true at all.
You can make the stuff yourself at home if you like its very easy using electrolysis, two electrodes, water, carbonate and a DC source (12V car battery works fine)
raspy
Active Member
@Tonygw It appears to be from Wikipedia, which cited two references to back up that statistic, one of which is a book from 2009, and the other is an article from 2020. Quote from the 2020 article below.
"Over 95% of the world’s hydrogen is produced using the steam methane reforming process (SMR)"
If we take a look at the IEA's 2019 report on the future of hydrogen;
"Demand for hydrogen, which has grown more than threefold since 1975, continues to rise – almost entirely supplied from fossil fuels, with 6% of global natural gas and 2% of global coal going to hydrogen production.
As a consequence, production of hydrogen is responsible for CO2 emissions of around 830 million tonnes of carbon dioxide per year, equivalent to the CO2 emissions of the United Kingdom and Indonesia combined.
Natural gas is currently the primary source of hydrogen production, accounting for around three quarters of the annual global dedicated hydrogen production of around 70 million tonnes. This accounts for about 6% of global natural gas use. Gas is followed by coal, due to its dominant role in China, and a small fraction is produced from from the use of oil and electricity.
While less than 0.1% of global dedicated hydrogen production today comes from water electrolysis, with declining costs for renewable electricity, in particular from solar PV and wind, there is growing interest in electrolytic hydrogen.
Dedicated electricity generation from renewables or nuclear power offers an alternative to the use of grid electricity for hydrogen production.
With declining costs for renewable electricity, in particular from solar PV and wind, interest is growing in electrolytic hydrogen and there have been several demonstration projects in recent years. Producing all of today’s dedicated hydrogen output from electricity would result in an electricity demand of 3 600 TWh, more than the total annual electricity generation of the European Union."
This is quite an interesting forecast;
"A recent report from IHS Markit expected a barely perceptible trickle of new fuel cell cars through 2030, with maybe about 500,000 FCEVs a year by 2032 marking the point of take-off. Despite the aggressive talk of some politicians demanding the end of ICE car production by the mid-2030s, sales will continue to defy these predictions. IHS Markit forecasts ICE cars plus mild-hybrids (gas engines much enhanced by electric powered components), will account for 70.6% of global production by 2030. LMC Automotive expects ICE cars to command a close to 50% global market share by 2030 and about 10% by 2050."
Regarding hydrogen in China (it's the world's biggest car market, over 10 times larger than UK market)
"The mainstream view in the industry is that green hydrogen will be economical only when the cost of renewable power falls below 0.2 yuan per kilowatt-hour. The cost of wind and solar electricity now is around 0.3 yuan per kWh. Zeng Tao, chief analyst of power equipment and new energy at investment bank China International Capital, said he expects green hydrogen can cost less than coal-based hydrogen by 2040."
I am liking this pragmatic report from LMC Automotive in 2020, especially the way they frame the conversation;
"Current circumstances only make FCEVs viable in a defined environment in fleet operation. The energy density advantage that FCEV has over BEV – payload capacity suffers under the weight and volume of the battery – means that the logical application in the short term is in Commercial Vehicles.
Despite the comparison made with BEVs, one must not see this as ‘BEV vs. FCEV’, but rather as ‘ICE vs. ZEV’. If future mobility is to be zero-emissions, BEVs cannot be the only solution, and are not suitable for all applications. Despite the colossal investment required to enable either powertrain, putting all your eggs in one basket is rarely a good idea, however tempting, when it comes to technology selection.
Our current view is that FCEV will start to emerge in earnest from around 2035, as shown in one scenario below. This is when we estimate renewable energy infrastructure to be sufficiently developed and able to facilitate a holistic hydrogen economy, without the need for a vast and potentially damaging battery production industry."
Some recent forecasts;
"European and UK green and blue hydrogen supply could exceed projected demand by 2050, said market participants at European Hydrogen Backbone (EHB) event on 15 June.
The EU and UK hydrogen demand is expected to be on average 2,150-750TWh corresponding to 20-25% of EU and UK final energy consumption by 2050, reported Dean Peters at consultancy firm Guidehouse in his presentation.
Simson said hydrogen imports from neighbouring countries can complement domestic EU/UK production.
'Europe is collaborating with Morocco and Ukraine for future hydrogen supply. There is a huge scope for global cooperation as US and Japan are keen to develop the technology,' added Simson.
Solar hydrogen from Morocco, Algeria and Tunisia could reach EHB network at a cost of around €1/kg by 2050, said van der Leun."
From the National Grid in 2020;
"Hydrogen 'could be the solution to many of the hardest parts of the transition to net-zero', National Grid says, particularly in long-distance freight, shipping and heavy industry.
The annual “future energy scenarios” (FES) sketch out four possible futures for the UK’s energy system until mid-century. This year, there are major changes with three of the four pathways reaching net-zero by 2050. In previous years, most FES scenarios missed the UK’s climate goals.
The three routes to net-zero vary in their level of societal change and reliance on hydrogen, but all require large gains in energy efficiency and heavy electrification of transport.
The 'Leading the Way” scenario reaches net-zero emissions by 2048, which National Grid describes as the “fastest credible decarbonisation' pathway.
This involves significant levels of societal change, with shifts away from private car use and big improvements in home energy efficiency. The scenarios do not directly tackle diet or land use.
The relative inefficiency of hydrogen-based decarbonisation also explains why “System Transformation” uses more energy than the other net-zero pathways.
The FES report says that 'electrification is key to the decarbonisation of transport' and sees the number of electric vehicles (EVs) on the road rising to around 30m by between 2040 and 2050. This compares to the current total of 32m cars on the road."
Lots of challenges (and opportunities) on the road to Net Zero!
raspy
Active Member
This article in Nature Climate Change last August is also an interesting read;
"For climate experts, green or renewable hydrogen — made from the electrolysis of water powered by solar or wind — is indispensable to climate neutrality. It features in all eight of the European Commission’s net zero emissions scenarios for 2050 In theory, it can do three things: store surplus renewables power when the grid cannot absorb it, help decarbonize hard-to-electrify sectors such as long-distance transport and heavy industry, and replace fossil fuels as a zero-carbon feedstock in chemicals and fuel production.
The hydrogen economy is a priority for the EU’s post-COVID-19 economic recovery package; this package is guided by the European Green Deal, which commits Europe to become the world’s first climate neutral continent by 2050.
Moreover, the climate impact of hydrogen depends entirely on how it is made. 'There is a risk of policy before definitions,' continues Acke. He warns that this could see hydrogen go the way of biofuels, which have suffered from start-stop policies because of intense debate over their net impact on climate change. 'Hydrogen is not a technology, it is an energy carrier that can be produced clean or dirty,' he says.
There are other colours. The main one on the horizon is ‘turquoise’ hydrogen made from molten metal pyrolysis. This is the thermal cracking of natural gas into hydrogen and solid carbon. Its appeal is twofold: one, it does not require CCS, and two, instead of CO2 it produces a material that has been on the EU’s critical raw materials list for years (as ‘natural graphite’). Big corporates such as Russia’s Gazprom and Germany’s BASF are looking into it, but this is a technology that is still in its infancy.
For some such as Samuele Furfari, professor in energy geopolitics at the Université Libre de Bruxelles in Belgium, hydrogen of any colour makes little sense. It makes much more sense to use fossil fuels or electricity directly. 'Each [conversion] step is a waste of energy,' he says. 'The processes are technically feasible but they are nonsense from an energy and economic point of view. Hydrogen has re-emerged because we need a solution to the intermittency of renewables.'
Nevertheless, clean hydrogen faces a paradox in its business case. The potential volumes are in industry, while the potential profit margins are in transport. Energy-intensive industries are the biggest hydrogen consumers today. With Europe aiming for climate neutrality in 2050, there is growing interest in clean hydrogen from sectors such as steel and chemicals (over half of all the hydrogen worldwide is used in fertilizer production and oil refining). Yet these are also extremely price-sensitive industries exposed to global competition. Companies are not prepared to pay several times the ‘grey’ price for a climate-friendly alternative.
'There is a push from heavy industry to get green hydrogen into road transport so private car owners bear some of the early costs,' says Philipp Niessen, director for industry and innovation at ECF. “But we believe it will be a scarce resource and it makes more sense to grow demand in sectors such as heavy industry where there is no decarbonization alternative.'
Few believe that private cars will run on hydrogen in future. They are widely expected to go electric. Instead, trucks are the battleground.
The green hydrogen economy needs tailored support. “EU policy is trying to repeat the success story of renewables,” says Kakaras. 'But there is a big difference: unlike solar and wind, green hydrogen production is driven by operational not capital expenditure. Eighty per cent of the cost depends on the electricity price.' Subsidies to promote large-scale deployment might bring down the cost of electrolysers, but this will not necessarily make green hydrogen production cheaper.
Kakaras explains: 'you need an electricity price which is expensive enough to make renewable power viable and low enough to make the hydrogen produced from it competitive with gas.' In practice, it is not possible to do both, he adds. 'Policymakers need to bridge the gap between the carbon-free fuel price and the gas price.' In practice, stakeholders are converging on the idea of Contracts for Difference for green hydrogen.
Stakeholders agree that Europe could never produce enough renewable power to run a self-sufficient hydrogen economy.
In reality, the hydrogen economy is an international project. Cross-border cooperation can ensure North Sea wind farms get enough space. Scale and economics dictate that Europe is likely to import green hydrogen from North Africa and the Middle East, and e-fuels from as far afield as Australia and Chile.
One of the biggest questions is whether enough green hydrogen can be ready fast enough to make a difference to climate change. Niessen says: 'we live within the constraint of carbon budgets. Electrolysers are not microchips. Of course, costs will go down significantly, but will they go down fast enough to meet the Paris climate goals?'
'If deep decarbonization is on the societal agenda, then hydrogen will come,' believes Kakaras. It is not about the laws of thermodynamics but whether society is willing to pay for climate neutrality. Michael Moore’s documentary Planet of the Humans suggests that ‘less is more’ is the only long-term answer to climate change. But the COVID-19 lockdowns demonstrated just how big an ask this is: emissions dropped dramatically but did little for climate change.
There is an opportunity here, however. As Furfari puts it: 'the Green Deal was an opportunity for politicians to spend public money. The COVID-19 crisis gives them license to spend as much as they want.'
"For climate experts, green or renewable hydrogen — made from the electrolysis of water powered by solar or wind — is indispensable to climate neutrality. It features in all eight of the European Commission’s net zero emissions scenarios for 2050 In theory, it can do three things: store surplus renewables power when the grid cannot absorb it, help decarbonize hard-to-electrify sectors such as long-distance transport and heavy industry, and replace fossil fuels as a zero-carbon feedstock in chemicals and fuel production.
The hydrogen economy is a priority for the EU’s post-COVID-19 economic recovery package; this package is guided by the European Green Deal, which commits Europe to become the world’s first climate neutral continent by 2050.
Moreover, the climate impact of hydrogen depends entirely on how it is made. 'There is a risk of policy before definitions,' continues Acke. He warns that this could see hydrogen go the way of biofuels, which have suffered from start-stop policies because of intense debate over their net impact on climate change. 'Hydrogen is not a technology, it is an energy carrier that can be produced clean or dirty,' he says.
There are other colours. The main one on the horizon is ‘turquoise’ hydrogen made from molten metal pyrolysis. This is the thermal cracking of natural gas into hydrogen and solid carbon. Its appeal is twofold: one, it does not require CCS, and two, instead of CO2 it produces a material that has been on the EU’s critical raw materials list for years (as ‘natural graphite’). Big corporates such as Russia’s Gazprom and Germany’s BASF are looking into it, but this is a technology that is still in its infancy.
For some such as Samuele Furfari, professor in energy geopolitics at the Université Libre de Bruxelles in Belgium, hydrogen of any colour makes little sense. It makes much more sense to use fossil fuels or electricity directly. 'Each [conversion] step is a waste of energy,' he says. 'The processes are technically feasible but they are nonsense from an energy and economic point of view. Hydrogen has re-emerged because we need a solution to the intermittency of renewables.'
Nevertheless, clean hydrogen faces a paradox in its business case. The potential volumes are in industry, while the potential profit margins are in transport. Energy-intensive industries are the biggest hydrogen consumers today. With Europe aiming for climate neutrality in 2050, there is growing interest in clean hydrogen from sectors such as steel and chemicals (over half of all the hydrogen worldwide is used in fertilizer production and oil refining). Yet these are also extremely price-sensitive industries exposed to global competition. Companies are not prepared to pay several times the ‘grey’ price for a climate-friendly alternative.
'There is a push from heavy industry to get green hydrogen into road transport so private car owners bear some of the early costs,' says Philipp Niessen, director for industry and innovation at ECF. “But we believe it will be a scarce resource and it makes more sense to grow demand in sectors such as heavy industry where there is no decarbonization alternative.'
Few believe that private cars will run on hydrogen in future. They are widely expected to go electric. Instead, trucks are the battleground.
The green hydrogen economy needs tailored support. “EU policy is trying to repeat the success story of renewables,” says Kakaras. 'But there is a big difference: unlike solar and wind, green hydrogen production is driven by operational not capital expenditure. Eighty per cent of the cost depends on the electricity price.' Subsidies to promote large-scale deployment might bring down the cost of electrolysers, but this will not necessarily make green hydrogen production cheaper.
Kakaras explains: 'you need an electricity price which is expensive enough to make renewable power viable and low enough to make the hydrogen produced from it competitive with gas.' In practice, it is not possible to do both, he adds. 'Policymakers need to bridge the gap between the carbon-free fuel price and the gas price.' In practice, stakeholders are converging on the idea of Contracts for Difference for green hydrogen.
Stakeholders agree that Europe could never produce enough renewable power to run a self-sufficient hydrogen economy.
In reality, the hydrogen economy is an international project. Cross-border cooperation can ensure North Sea wind farms get enough space. Scale and economics dictate that Europe is likely to import green hydrogen from North Africa and the Middle East, and e-fuels from as far afield as Australia and Chile.
One of the biggest questions is whether enough green hydrogen can be ready fast enough to make a difference to climate change. Niessen says: 'we live within the constraint of carbon budgets. Electrolysers are not microchips. Of course, costs will go down significantly, but will they go down fast enough to meet the Paris climate goals?'
'If deep decarbonization is on the societal agenda, then hydrogen will come,' believes Kakaras. It is not about the laws of thermodynamics but whether society is willing to pay for climate neutrality. Michael Moore’s documentary Planet of the Humans suggests that ‘less is more’ is the only long-term answer to climate change. But the COVID-19 lockdowns demonstrated just how big an ask this is: emissions dropped dramatically but did little for climate change.
There is an opportunity here, however. As Furfari puts it: 'the Green Deal was an opportunity for politicians to spend public money. The COVID-19 crisis gives them license to spend as much as they want.'
Bellow
Hardcore MB Enthusiast
Another informative post Raspy - thanks.
Just picking out the above paragraph for the line: ''over half of all the hydrogen worldwide is used in fertilizer production and oil refining''
That's another reason to change how agriculture is done. Feeding livestock uses four times the food energy value compared to humans consuming crops directly. Less crops means less fertilizer required. I'm not blind though to the frequent references in your posts to 'societal change'.....
D
Deleted member 126969
Guest
There’s a massive and typically acrimonious thread on his last Mirai and hydrogen over on pistonheads.
At the moment, you’d be a brave person to try one. Finding somewhere to refuel it is challenging. At the moment, there are 9 filling stations in the UK. Most are rated at 80kg/day so that's 16 nominal 5kg fill-ups. Last time I actually checked, only 4 of them were operating. You're OK if you live in/near London, assuming you don't mind a bit of a run out to find a working station as there are 4 inside the M25 and a couple not too far away...Gatwick and Beaconsfield. Elsewhere...not so great. (yes, I'm being sarcastic)
H2, once the small matter of producing it at bulk in a green fashion is solved, would potentially be a good option for some applications, but far from all. I can certainly see it making inroads into haulage and shipping and possibly air travel.
As one of those articles pointed out though, it's a very resource hungry process and that will always make it expensive.
I've also seen ammonia touted as the perfect fuel too. Sadly, same issues arise, it's hideously inefficient to make the stuff.
The cobalt argument is soon to be somewhat moot as most battery manufacturers are trying to get away from it ASAP, simply for cost, let alone any negative associations with its production.
...and don't forget, any HFCEV still needs a battery to provide sufficient peak power to meet demand and soak up the energy from regeneration braking - can't run an HFC backwards.
The Mirai is typically Toyota-clever, but it's so compromised. Small inside and very short of storage due to being stuffed full of very bulky H2 cylinders, and the HFC, and the bettery, and the thermal management for both power sources. H2 cylinders and the HFC itself are both items with limited lifespans too, so no advantage over a battery there either.
It is a shame TBH as H2 as fuel is so seductive, as it ticks that one box so many seem so concerned about - refill in 5 minutes. Sadly, you can ne' change the laws o' physics.....
At the moment, you’d be a brave person to try one. Finding somewhere to refuel it is challenging. At the moment, there are 9 filling stations in the UK. Most are rated at 80kg/day so that's 16 nominal 5kg fill-ups. Last time I actually checked, only 4 of them were operating. You're OK if you live in/near London, assuming you don't mind a bit of a run out to find a working station as there are 4 inside the M25 and a couple not too far away...Gatwick and Beaconsfield. Elsewhere...not so great. (yes, I'm being sarcastic)
H2, once the small matter of producing it at bulk in a green fashion is solved, would potentially be a good option for some applications, but far from all. I can certainly see it making inroads into haulage and shipping and possibly air travel.
As one of those articles pointed out though, it's a very resource hungry process and that will always make it expensive.
I've also seen ammonia touted as the perfect fuel too. Sadly, same issues arise, it's hideously inefficient to make the stuff.
The cobalt argument is soon to be somewhat moot as most battery manufacturers are trying to get away from it ASAP, simply for cost, let alone any negative associations with its production.
...and don't forget, any HFCEV still needs a battery to provide sufficient peak power to meet demand and soak up the energy from regeneration braking - can't run an HFC backwards.
The Mirai is typically Toyota-clever, but it's so compromised. Small inside and very short of storage due to being stuffed full of very bulky H2 cylinders, and the HFC, and the bettery, and the thermal management for both power sources. H2 cylinders and the HFC itself are both items with limited lifespans too, so no advantage over a battery there either.
It is a shame TBH as H2 as fuel is so seductive, as it ticks that one box so many seem so concerned about - refill in 5 minutes. Sadly, you can ne' change the laws o' physics.....
