las vegas shooting

[grober]

God only knows what possess someone to do this.

Daddy !---aka---Patrick Benjamin Paddock a violent bank robber in the 1960s and 1970s and on the FBI's most wanted list

QUOTE:-An FBI poster that is available online says that the Las Vegas killer's father “diagnosed as psychopathic, has carried firearms in commission of bank robberies” and “reportedly has suicidal tendencies and should be considered armed and very dangerous.”

Might indicate a genetic mediated propensity towards violence- simply not triggered till now? Las Vegas killer's father was on FBI's 10 most wanted list

 

[GeeJayW]

The whole situation is so difficult to comprehend. No way will the hard core gun owners give up their weapons, no way they are going to admit that widespread gun ownership is a significant social problem.

Does my head in.

 

[Deleted member 6183]

I do find these threads tasteless in a way.

Picking over a tragic event in a foreign country and getting snooty about their laws or way of life isn't very gracious.

 

[GeeJayW]

I do find these threads tasteless in a way.

Picking over a tragic event in a foreign country and getting snooty about their laws or way of life isn't very gracious.

When it's being reported in our country, I think it's only fair/to be expected that some discussion will follow. This is not just a tragic event, it's psychotic that in a civilised society, Joe Public can legally and without any significant safeguards, own as many assault rifles as he wants. If that's tasteless on my part, then I'm sorry for that.

 

[E55BOF]

When it's being reported in our country, I think it's only fair/to be expected that some discussion will follow. This is not just a tragic event, it's psychotic that in a civilised society, Joe Public can legally and without any significant safeguards, own as many assault rifles as he wants. If that's tasteless on my part, then I'm sorry for that.

That's comment, not ungracious or tasteless. I've worked with and got to know well numerous Americans, and they were and are decent people, but I have not the slightest desire to visit the USA. There is something very alien about a society where pretty much every lunatic is entitled to own a semi-automatic (at least) weapon and unlimited ammunition.

 

[Cubase]

Daddy !---aka---Patrick Benjamin Paddock a violent bank robber in the 1960s and 1970s and on the FBI's most wanted list

QUOTE:-An FBI poster that is available online says that the Las Vegas killer's father “diagnosed as psychopathic, has carried firearms in commission of bank robberies” and “reportedly has suicidal tendencies and should be considered armed and very dangerous.”

Might indicate a genetic mediated propensity towards violence- simply not triggered till now? Las Vegas killer's father was on FBI's 10 most wanted list

Genetic, or a poor upbringing. I have no idea?

Either way, it's so sad.

 

[grober]

Genetic, or a poor upbringing. I have no idea?

Either way, it's so sad.

Agreed -its simply one possible factor in anotherwise unfathomable tragedy. Current thinking would indicate that there may be genetic and environmental factors in psychopathy
Genes, Environment, and Criminal Behavior

 

[Cubase]

Agreed -its simply one possible factor in anotherwise unfathomable tragedy. Current thinking would indicate that there may be genetic and environmental factors in psychopathy
Genes, Environment, and Criminal Behavior

Very interesting link - I've only read part of it so far.

 

[MancMike]

I do find these threads tasteless in a way.
Picking over a tragic event in a foreign country and getting snooty about their laws or way of life isn't very gracious.

Talking about gracious? Do you remember how the Manchester Arena thread went for several pages? The biggest disgrace I've seen on this forum.

As usual, the few nutters spoil it for the masses and that seems pretty apt about now.

 

[Deleted member 6183]

Talking about gracious? Do you remember how the Manchester Arena thread went for several pages? The biggest disgrace I've seen on this forum.

As usual, the few nutters spoil it for the masses and that seems pretty apt about now.

These kind of events seem to bring out the internet know it alls with a black belt in Google.

 

[TheFoX]

I suppose the question will be, 'Why?'. Most rational people would have asked them to turn the volume down, not unloaded numerous clips into the party goers. Of course this is America, where everything is bigger and better, and the favoured way to commit suicide is to open fire on the public until the Police kill you, or you run out of ammunition and take your own life.

Also, is terrorism a real threat in the US? I would like to know, year on year, how many Americans die from terrorism compared to how many die from normal gun crime and violence? It seems every other program on the box is about murders, serial killers and other undesirables on the American continent.

With the American gun crime history, is this event any real surprise to us? I think not. In fact, with the American reputation for outlandish crime sprees, this action was to be expected.

 

[Ted]

Sobering to think that statistically on that day, nearly twice as many people were killed (including suicides) and just as many were injured from guns in elsewhere in America.
If this tragedy brings in just the smallest amount of gun control perhaps there will be a glimmer of hope.

 

[Tuercas viejas]

Sobering to think that statistically on that day, nearly twice as many people were killed (including suicides) and just as many were injured from guns in elsewhere in America.
If this tragedy brings in just the smallest amount of gun control perhaps there will be a glimmer of hope.

Its even more sobering to know that opioid addiction and prescription drug overdoses actually kill more citizens of the United States than do firearms.
For information, remember the United States as a country being a collection of States who have their own laws especially where gun ownership and control are concerned.
Colorado for example has very different gun laws than neighboring Wyoming and certainly in Nevada where the laws are much less restricted maybe totally laxed by some! Residents in some of these western states regard Colorado as being the very epitome of local Gov interference in the lives of citizens like taxes, gun control and infested by Democrats .
Historically Texas being an independent Republic in its own right LONG BEFORE it was ever a member of the Union brought to that Union its own set of laws, just as members states of the EU have done! You can legally carry an open long gun in public for example . Your right as a resident in the state of Texas which by the way is the size of France. (By comparison the UK is a tiny country about the size of Idaho. )
People there in Texas for example defend vigorously their Texas heritage first as do their long standing "Don't mess with Texas" staunch Republican views!

In perspective of course ! If we look at other American states on the continent as whole, neighbouring Mexico has some very high gun violence stats so does Central,America ! Venezuela in South America has an enormous gun violence and firearm death ratess Far higher than the United States is Brazil a country even bigger than the US its enormous! These are all American states and the residents regard themselves are Americans in part of their historical make up
As side bar!

The potential for firearms assault in Venezuela in the late 90's for example was in part my decision to leave the country (as a Brit and Naturalized citizen) due to the risks involved just in daily life!

.el-nacional.com/noticias/sucesos/muertes-violentas-los-fines-semana-dispararon-416-caracas_58023
Brazil Has Nearly 60,000 Murders, And It May Relax Gun Laws

I don't see any comments about these sobering stats at on these forums!

In fact the US is a very safe place to live, and yes if you want to go and find trouble it's there just like the UK on Saturday night !

Fact is boiled down ; being a Brit most of my country folk don't really know the United States very well, nor do they of Canada! They only think they do! Making understandable comments on the only measurable thing and that is life in the UK as a comparison ! Really its quite different in many ways !

Just like the UK you have to live there for a while to understand its nuances and daily life to gauge and comment without knee jerk reaction to the news . .

AND Yes! Many years ago when I grew up and lived/worked in the UK I held perceptions and believe expounded by many of the comments such I have read in this thread. Having lived and worked for the majority of my working life in Africa & in the ME, I know something about what makes up a place to put down roots as the big picture!
The US is not such a bad place as many of you seem to expound here!
Dennis
aka Tuercas viejas

 

[Tuercas viejas]

The shooting The Shooting in Las Vegas is the 272nd mass shooting of the year - and Nevada's first in 2017:

Correction: 273rd mass shooting of the year. The 272nd was in Lawrence, KS early Sunday morning.
Gun Violence Archive, a website that tracks incidents and crimes involving guns across the United States, said Sunday night's attack was the 273rd mass shooting in the country this year.

It defines a "mass shooting" as four or more people being shot at the same time or location.

Death Toll now 58 .... now 515 Injured.
We are just observers of how the 2nd Amendment works and how IMHO how fortunate we are not to let everyone have guns.

Just a small edit since I found this reasonable comment :-
""The 2nd amendment did not have in mind automatic weapons.

It was in the context of muskets""

This is pertinent to the discussion:-
The Second Amendment you don't know
Dennis

 

[grober]

Contrary to what folks might think, some forum members take more than a superficial interest in what goes on in the USA now and in the past. At present I am watching Ken Burns'--- Ken Burns - Wikipedia ---- excellent series on the Vietnam War on BBC 4 available on iPlayer for anyone interested on this side of the pond? The Vietnam War review – Ken Burns makes a complex story immediately comprehensible I see the Vietnam War as fairly unique in documentary terms in that it stemmed from an era where, with technological advances, there was an immense increase in fairly uncontrolled press, film, and TV coverage of the conflict revealing the horrors of modern warfare. Later, governments round the world would recognise the immense political significance of this type of material and would take sophisticated steps to sanitise and control its dissemination. For that reason it gives perhaps what might be a unique insight into the " heart of darkness" that exists in war and the American psyche.

 

[TheFoX]

While listening to the BBC News yesterday, it was announced that the National Rifle Association would not allow Congress to ban gun ownership, and that the NRA poured millions of Dollars into ensuring it would remain strong. Of course, it is the right of every American citizen to carry arms, but surely there should be some restrictions on how much arms they can legally carry?

From all the reports I've listened to, this guy had an ****nal of weapons and ammunition, rather than just enough to justify his need.

A sensible approach would be to limit ownership to a small number of weapons, some preferably being held in gun clubs, and to ensure that stockpiling ammunition is discouraged. It shouldn't be too hard to create a system to administrate this scenario.

In the UK, Michael Ryan went on a killing spree in Hungerford, and the law was changed so that those who owned guns could no longer take them home with them. Guns now have to be kept at a registered gun club under lock and key, and the only guns you can now legally keep in your home is a shotgun, water pistol and air rifle/pistol.

As for the stats on how people die, this makes no difference, as governments should be actively looking at ways of reducing the numbers of deaths, regardless of how those deaths happen. So, irrespective of whether people die from gunshot, drugs, knife attacks, road accidents or any other 'accident', our governments should be looking to minimise these occurances, and not dismissing them because it might offend a section of the community.

 

[Darrell]

While listening to the BBC News yesterday, it was announced that the National Rifle Association would not allow Congress to ban gun ownership, and that the NRA poured millions of Dollars into ensuring it would remain strong. Of course, it is the right of every American citizen to carry arms, but surely there should be some restrictions on how much arms they can legally carry?

From all the reports I've listened to, this guy had an ****nal of weapons and ammunition, rather than just enough to justify his need.

A sensible approach would be to limit ownership to a small number of weapons, some preferably being held in gun clubs, and to ensure that stockpiling ammunition is discouraged. It shouldn't be too hard to create a system to administrate this scenario.

In the UK, Michael Ryan went on a killing spree in Hungerford, and the law was changed so that those who owned guns could no longer take them home with them. Guns now have to be kept at a registered gun club under lock and key, and the only guns you can now legally keep in your home is a shotgun, water pistol and air rifle/pistol.

As for the stats on how people die, this makes no difference, as governments should be actively looking at ways of reducing the numbers of deaths, regardless of how those deaths happen. So, irrespective of whether people die from gunshot, drugs, knife attacks, road accidents or any other 'accident', our governments should be looking to minimise these occurances, and not dismissing them because it might offend a section of the community.

All very good points until you get to the last paragraph.
Our government and the US government are gutless.

 

[grober]

One US viewpoint
QUOTE:-
Regardless of whether Paddock's gun was legal or not, the grim truth is that the illegal gun market is so robust because of the legal gun market, not despite it. Most illegal guns, and arguably all of them, started out as legal guns and wound their way onto the black market in various ways, such as bulk purchases, corrupt gun sellers, straw-man purchases or outright theft. Whether the NRA likes it or not, this suggests that one of the quickest ways to shut down the illegal gun market is to shut down the legal one.
"The gun industry profits when it sells a gun that is eventually sold to a criminal," Avery Gardiner, co-president of the Brady Campaign to End Gun Violence, told Salon. "And the gun industry also profits when the culture of fear it created — having armed those criminals, often through irresponsible or negligent sales — makes other people think that they also need to have a gun."

https://www.salon.com/2017/10/03/am...our-gun-industry-profits-from-fear-and-death/

the BUMP MOTION FIRE STOCK advert

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And the cost to society in general

https://med.stanford.edu/news/all-n...t-wounds-total-6-billion-over-nine-years.html

Gun violence resulted in initial hospitalization costs of more than $6.6 billion nationwide from 2006 through 2014 — an average of $734.6 million per year, according to a study by researchers at the Stanford University School of Medicine.

 

[markjay]

...In the UK, Michael Ryan went on a killing spree in Hungerford, and the law was changed so that those who owned guns could no longer take them home with them. Guns now have to be kept at a registered gun club under lock and key, and the only guns you can now legally keep in your home is a shotgun, water pistol and air rifle/pistol....

In the UK, you can keep as many firearms as your like at your home, provided that they are of a permitted type and you have a Firearms Certificate for them, and they are locked in a suitable safe or strong box.

When it comes to private ownership of firearms, the key differences between the US and the UK (aparat from the consitutional one) are:

1. The permitted types in the UK are more restricted (e.g. most type of handguns are banned in the UK following the Dunblane massacre).

2. A Firearms Certificate is required in the UK in all cases, and this involves a vetting process and background checks.

3. In the UK a good reason is required for owning a firearm, e.g. sport, target practice, hunting etc - but crucially, self-defence is not a valid reason for owning a firearm.

4. In addition to 3 above, the good reason will need to be demonstrated, e.g. if the firearm is declared for hunting, the owner will need to have a valid hunting permit and actively participate in hunting activities, or the Firearms Certificate may be revoked.

What this means, is that even if you own guns in the UK, you can't legally go around with them, or keep them by your bedside, claiming they are for self protection.

The guns can only be used in accordance with their permit, e.g. on the way to or from a sport or hunting activity, and even then they can't be loaded while being transported etc.

In short, in the US you can legally own and carry (with some variations between states) a loaded gun for self protection, in the UK you can't.

 

[Tuercas viejas]

For reference;-
What Are the Gun Laws in Your State?

It boils down to being responsible with firearms !
My wife when I married her had several weapons , insisted they were broken down and stored as inert objects,in our metro Denver suburban home; especially when kids came along !
On the other hand my in laws who live in the back woods of Idaho and log off of it, have an veritable ar$enal and when visiting I do carry a semi auto rifle in case of bear attack!

Of course there are firearm accidents daily and they just become news! Unless there is a connection of course . For example last year I called by daughter the pediatric surgeon in Houston and asked how was life in the A&E !!
The answer! Very matter of fact:-
Well I have just finished up lifting half a skull up off a 9 year old boy after a pistol accidentally discharged itself while the family were having breakfast. It went right through his head and the poor kid was medivac'd in with his brains hanging out of both holes today!

Do you think he will be OK--Oh yeh Dad!
Just another day in the emergency room--but I am glad to be going back to Africa! Dealing with Aids and starvation
Tuercas viejas