Legality of owning/using Mercedes Key Programming Kit

[wongl]

I purchased my W169 a few months ago with only one key and was quite shocked that several Mercedes dealerships quoted £220 to factory order a new key for me.

I have contacted a number of Mercedes key duplication specialists and the best quote I got was £160 provided I drove my car to them up in Birmingham. To 'cut' a new IR key for me they will have to remove the EIS module, desolder two chips from it to generate a dump file required to program a new key.

No surprisingly, for a lousy savings of £60, I am not too keen for them to remove the EIS module from my car, let alone desoldering a couple of chips from it!

Having spoken to my independent mercedes repair specialist, I am told that he has seen a piece of kit on the market that can read the EIS to generate a dump file using a dummy IR key connected to a laptop. This method eliminates the need to remove the EIS module and certainly no de-soldering required. It also greatly reduces the time it takes a cut a new key.

Hurray:bannana: But from my research, this piece of kit costs nearly £2000 once shipping, import duty and VAT have been factored into the base purchase price. My independent mercedes repair specialist tells me that he has at least half a dozen customers wanting a spare IR key cut and has encouraged me to purchase the kit. Despite this, I am not sure I can justify the outlay of buying this kit on the basis of 6 o 7 customers without charging an outrage price for the service.

Also not sure how legal copying keys would be in the UK?

Any thoughts or comments regarding purchasing and owning a piece of kit like this?

 

[dozypillock]

I purchased my W169 a few months ago with only one key and was quite shocked that several Mercedes dealerships quoted £220 to factory order a new key for me.

I have contacted a number of Mercedes key duplication specialists and the best quote I got was £160 provided I drove my car to them up in Birmingham. To 'cut' a new IR key for me they will have to remove the EIS module, desolder two chips from it to generate a dump file required to program a new key.

No surprisingly, for a lousy savings of £60, I am not too keen for them to remove the EIS module from my car, let alone desoldering a couple of chips from it!

Having spoken to my independent mercedes repair specialist, I am told that he has seen a piece of kit on the market that can read the EIS to generate a dump file using a dummy IR key connected to a laptop. This method eliminates the need to remove the EIS module and certainly no de-soldering required. It also greatly reduces the time it takes a cut a new key.

Hurray:bannana: But from my research, this piece of kit costs nearly £2000 once shipping, import duty and VAT have been factored into the base purchase price. My independent mercedes repair specialist tells me that he has at least half a dozen customers wanting a spare IR key cut and has encouraged me to purchase the kit. Despite this, I am not sure I can justify the outlay of buying this kit on the basis of 6 o 7 customers without charging an outrage price for the service.

Also not sure how legal copying keys would be in the UK?

Any thoughts or comments regarding purchasing and owning a piece of kit like this?

You say you have a potential 6 or 7 customers already. Well, you can add another one to that if it saves me driving all the way to Birmingham, as I need a spare key as well.

Neil

 

[E270 Owner]

Dont waste your time and money.

They are buggy as hell and unsupported by the suppliers

The only way to correctly and safely create the dump is by desoldering the chips.

Been there done that got the T shirt unfortunately

 

[Kerja]

£2k for a module, how about around £50 for each blank key? you would need to find at least 20 people that need copies and charge them £150 to get money back.

Possibly going for Chinese Copy might do the trick for cheaper?

But do you know how to use it all, are you ready for trial and error?
Those are expensive for a various reasons.

 

[wongl]

Dont waste your time and money.

They are buggy as hell and unsupported by the suppliers

The only way to correctly and safely create the dump is by desoldering the chips.

Been there done that got the T shirt unfortunately

Do you have any experience of these type of kit? It is not from China as the kits from China requires desoldering - sounds very much like those being used by so called Mercedes Key Specialists.

 

[wongl]

£2k for a module, how about around £50 for each blank key? you would need to find at least 20 people that need copies and charge them £150 to get money back.

Possibly going for Chinese Copy might do the trick for cheaper?

But do you know how to use it all, are you ready for trial and error?
Those are expensive for a various reasons.

My Mercedes Specialist has access to quite a large supply of 'used' keys from new cars.(Apparently dealership are constantly misplacing the keys from their stock!). These keys would need to be erased before they can be reprogrammed, but I suspect it will cost me circa £50 to get a newish key to erase and reprogramme. So £50-ish for the key (without blade) and £50 to reprogramme. I think targeting around the £100 mark for a replacement key is probably as low as realistically achievable. I would personally be happy to pay £100 for a newish used key for my car without going to a main dealership. So more like 40 customers to break even.

As someone else mentioned, the problem with the Chinese kit is that it will be unsupported.

 

[dozypillock]

Do you have any experience of these type of kit? It is not from China as the kits from China requires desoldering - sounds very much like those being used by so called Mercedes Key Specialists.

How does a MB dealer "cut" a new key?. I guess they still need the car. Do they de-solder anything?

Neil

 

[wongl]

How does a MB dealer "cut" a new key?. I guess they still need the car. Do they de-solder anything?

Neil

No, don't think so; According to the parts manager in my local MB dealership, they order the key from Germany precoded for the car (using the VIN number). Essentially the EIS is preprogrammed at the factory with the codes for 8 keys and MB Germany has all 8 codes on their database. So they don't need to muck about with the EIS module in the car.

But without access to MB's database, one would have to read the password and hash code associated with each key already programmed into the EIS memory. To make things even more complicated, reading the EIS memory is only the first part, to get the 2nd password one would have to read the memory from a current key too. I suppose this makes it impossible for anyone to make a copy of the key without having access to the car AND an existing working key. Unlike some of the lesser cars we saw on Watchdog!

Luckily we have reached a point where all of this can be read via the IR so nothing needs to be de-soldered (unlike older kits).

 

[andy27168]

How does a MB dealer "cut" a new key?. I guess they still need the car. Do they de-solder anything?

Neil

They don't well at least on my car and for MBs of the late nineties early noughties with electronic keys (210, 202, 208 etc) came straight from Germany already coded and fully working.
As far as I was aware old keys CANNOT be recoded not even by MB.

 

[wongl]

As far as I was aware old keys CANNOT be recoded not even by MB.

Yes they can, but it needs to be erased first and only works for keys up to circa 2012. This is very easy to do if you have one with the Motorola Chip as its memory can be erased by issuing a command via the IR. But the more common NEC chip is much harder - older equipment requires the chip to be completely desoldered and erased using a chip programmer. Newer kit requires 3 pins to be desoldered from the PCB and attached to the kit to erase the memory. Not sure about the very latest keys since 2012.

You can find out more about this if you search the internet.

 

[neilrr]

My tells me that he has at least half a dozen customers wanting a spare IR key cut and has encouraged me to purchase the kit.

Why isn't your independent mercedes repair specialist buying one if he already has customers waiting? It's a license to print money, innit?

Avoid.

 

[wongl]

Why isn't your independent mercedes repair specialist buying one if he already has customers waiting? It's a license to print money, innit?

Avoid.

He has his hands full fixing car and doesn't need to invest in key duplicating equipment. The chap that he normally uses had this IR dummy key kit, but he no longer visits him anymore. Perhaps he has moved to a different part of the country - hopefully not detained by her majesty's pleasure!

 

[MC68HC705X32]

Hi Wongl,

Great thread you have started here...

A couple of points I would like to make.

Equipment is easily obtainable nowadays for most things, But using it effectively is the hardest part.

Only around 3 out of 10 Jobs I get in, can be completed with the above mention method. Not all data can be read by IR on most EIS units. Early cars have been "cracked" but maybe 30% of the units. Is that a good risk of your £2000 (To start with?) BTW Your W169 EIS can be read partially by IR and then you would need to find the password from the key.. If you have the correct key and software version that is. And you don't know that until you have it in front of you.

Data to program the keys has to be obtained else where meaning that, it is necessary to have multiple ways and equipment to do the jobs.

If competent no damage can or would be done to any module removed. However it is very very easy to make a mistake that could cost you a trip to the dealer, even using the method you have mentioned.

Keys cannot be erased, or read fully by IR. Meaning soldering is necessary on every job.. Motorola and NEC are two makes of key MCU, can you name anymore? A 30 ssop mcu is delicate thing. And so are the solder tracks you need to solder it to, with no room for error or any legs soldered together.

SMD soldering requires a lot of skill and practice, Have you ever de-soldered a 64qfp and replaced it so it looks as though its never been removed?

Do you know the temperature that is needed to remove the MCU without damaging the surrounding capacitors and components, or the multi layer PCB?

All of the above answers come with a lot of time, patience and money. I have spent years on research and have 5 years experience on this subject. I have seen almost every eventuality of EIS and key failure, but still learn something new everyday.

Also, Please do tell who the independent is you speak so highly of. I know personally many independents in London and the surrounding areas.

So, if its so easy.. why isn't everyone doing it?

PS, Do you like my user name?

 

[wongl]

surrounding areas.

So, if its so easy.. why isn't everyone doing it?

PS, Do you like my user name?

Yes your user name is pretty cool

Why isn't everyone doing it? Well it is quite tricky at best. So lack of knowledge and cost of entry. Up to now it requires removing the unit, desoldering the chips to read the chips to get a memory dump. The memory dump needs to be decrypted and so on.

Personally I am not afraid to solder surface mount chips - just need the correct SMD kit hot air gun and clip. Obviously not cheap for a decent one with temperature control and exhaust system. Plus a dry joint may not immediately present an issue until some time later, hence I would not want someone to muck about with my EIS - if this goes wrong a new one will require a factory key to reprogramme! On the other hand, if a dry joint causes the key to fail, this is not detrimental to the car and a new key can be reprogrammed at little to no real cost.

I suspect there is a degree of experimentation required due to this subject being largely undocumented for obvious reasons. But that is the fun of it, not? For example I have really enjoyed experimenting with developer mode and understand that some things just will not work even in developer's mode!

 

[tanuie]

I would just pat the £220 for a MB key and have done with it, saving all the hassle.

 

[BAZ-500SL]

Lol seeing this reminds me of "GONE IN 60 SECONDS"

" if there's no mercedes there's no point in boosting any other car"

 

[jaymanek]

Also another point is that the newer style keys cant be erased and programmed.. You need to build a collection of older style keys... pre 2010ish..

 

[bing]

Facing the same problem. Rang one specialist in London and they charge more than MB , WTF! Really not ideal just to have one key and this is the first time I've owned a car with just one key . Can't understand how some owners can live with just one ?! So looks like it is MB route for me .

 

[Howard]

I had only one key with my clk430.

It teaches you to be careful with it.

 

[ItalianTuneUp]

To me, MC68HC705X32 sounds like he knows what he's talking about and I would just buy a new key from MB. Expensive unfortunately, but good security is what we all need for our cars.

MC68HC705X32, your username sounds like a Motorola chip number, correct or not? I didn't Google it, so I'm interested to find out.