Lemon Law

[marcos]

I know in the US they have a Lemon Law so if a new car devolopes the same fault a certain number of times the manufacturer has to buy it back or supply a new model.
Do we have such a law in this country and if so how many trips to the garage would be needed?
The reason I ask is my ML has now been in three times for an oil leak and strange noises and we are getting nowhere. Th engine bay looks like a grenade has gone off and I'm begining to lose my patience. Apparently they now think it's maybe something to do with the intercooler housing so I am losing my car for 4-days next week, that will bring the total to 8-days off the road in the past 5 weeks.
I wouldn't mind so much but the service manager has a serious problem with the fact that I am on first name terms with almost everyone at the dealership but not him, because he is quite possibly the rudest person I have dealt with. I have 2 choices regarding him. The first is to wedge my car up his backside as I told him I would do if his attitude towards me didn't change or the second is to complain about him to someone senior, the problem with the second option is everyone above him thinks he's great
He implied that I drive the car too roughly off road and I am damaging components, the fact that I have hardly been off-road and when I have I drive at a snails pace didn't seem to pacify him, sp what is my next move
Any advice would help as I really am fed up.

 

[SG CL500]

I believe it is three times (lemon law) and we do not have any law that is as specific - we have the sale/supply of goods/services act, under which you could TRY to reject the vehicle under 'unfit for use' provisions - however, my (limited) understanding is that if you've allowed them to fix it the strength of your case is weakened.

How long have you had it for? I would escalate the problem to either the dealerships owners or DCUK.

(And just driving off road isn't an issue - it is after all marketed as an off road car! You have to take due care and attention)

Edit - not directly off help but as the question was about the Lemon Law : http://www.carlemon.com/

 

[Howard]

I just read your post SGCL and when I got to the end I thought for a spilt second , who the hell is Carl Emon ?

Hey it's early on Sunday .......

 

[Flash]

Sorry to hear this mate.

Under supply and Sale of Goods Act the supplier/seller has to have had three attempts to try and rectify the problem (s) for you to have rejected the goods but this applies to the first 4 weeks. Make a written complaint about all the issues with a full log of the dates/events etc. and also make a complaint about the Service Manager to the senior management and DC UK. Make it clear that should they fail to sort out the oil leak again then you want a refund/replacement or some form of compensation. On new models that are problematic I have hard of DC UK buying the cars back outside the 30 day refuned period as oer Sale of Goods Act.

Do not let the service manager treat you like a door mat if you have tried to be polite/diplomatic yourself.

 

[glojo]

Woops

 

[glojo]

I wouldn't mind so much but the service manager has a serious problem with the fact that I am on first name terms with almost everyone at the dealership but not him, because he is quite possibly the rudest person I have dealt with.

Hi Marcos,
What a disaster. I note you say your on first name terms with nearly everyone at this dealership? How high up the ladder does this go?

Is it possible to have a chat with either the Managing Director or perhaps the sales manager? I ask this because it would be nice to get them involved in this unfortunate saga. I would have a nice chat and ask the nitty gritty question, "If this was your car, how would you react?" Hopefully they will give an honest answer and advise you to get Mercedes-BenzUK involved. If both you and the dealership do this your case should be treated as a priority?

MikeL and a few others, myself included, have had problems with new vehicles, which were never resolved and the cars were rejected. I would never recommend the bull at a china shop approach, simply because it tends to encourage confrontation.

I understand where your coming from with the Service Manager, but the annoying thing is; this person has influence and you need him, more than he needs you. He should be doing everything in his power to placate you, and it is sad to read how this relationship has broken down.

Good luck getting this issue resolved, your a good bloke and do not deserve this hassle.

Regards,
John

 

[Dieselman]

Marcos
If you feel you are getting the run around and the dealership staff are being unhelpful why not escallate the problem to DC Customer Services.
Just say that the problem is not being sorted and you are unhappy with the comments from the dealership Service Manager.
This WILL make someone take note as if the issue isn't resolved to your satisfaction within 48Hrs the dealership is stung with a £1000 fine.

Your "friendly" Service Manager may not be flavour of the month after that.

 

[marcos]

I'm going to give them the benefit of the doubt for the moment. I'll wait till the end of the week and see how it all goes, if the problem is sorted out by by friday then fine, but if not then a polite letter to DC customer services will be sent.
The biggest problem is I think the car is great and I just can't help thinking that the dealerships attitude towards the whole thing is ruining the experience. Sad when I look back at how good they used to be.

 

[Dieter]

Hi Marcos,

Sorry to read about your problems . Hope it/they get fixed soon AND permanently .

Touch wood/key board I've had no problems with mine over last year (11.5K miles) and definately agree with you that it's a great car (much better than 'old' 270, which was OK).

Cheers,

 

[DC_insider]

This WILL make someone take note as if the issue isn't resolved to your satisfaction within 48Hrs the dealership is stung with a £1000 fine.

Really? First I've heard of DCUK issuing fines to Dealers. What if the customer does not have a genuine grievance?

 

[glojo]

I'm going to give them the benefit of the doubt for the moment. I'll wait till the end of the week and see how it all goes, if the problem is sorted out by by Friday then fine, but if not then a polite letter to DC customer services will be sent.

Hi Marcos,
Has the dealership given you good reason to wait until the end of the week? Cars breakdown, that is a fact of life and we must give the dealer every opportunity to repair the vehicle.

If this is a recurring problem that is not being rectified then you may well have a very good case for further action. Have you considered simply documenting all the ongoing problems and keeping DCUK in the loop. My vehicle was bought back within five or six weeks, but that was with the full support of the dealership.

Regards,
John

 

[Apial]

I sent a MINI back to the dealer when its engine blew all its coolant on its inaugural journey home. I rejected it on the basis that heat damage will have caused long term damage such that I will have no faith in the product.

I blew my top in the showroom, sent a letter to the dealer, another to MINI. I was given a new MINI, and a few freebies in compensation for my upset. The moral of the story is that the squeakiest wheel gets the most oil.

 

[Dieselman]

Really? First I've heard of DCUK issuing fines to Dealers. What if the customer does not have a genuine grievance?

Hmm not what the local dealer said when an issue was raised with DC CC. Even though the grievence wasn't raised against the dealer as such.

In the case of no geniune grievance DC would be able to make that call after hearing all the circumstances.

Of course you could well be correct and the Dealer was talking rubbish, in which case why mention it?

 

[marcos]

Hi Marcos,
Has the dealership given you good reason to wait until the end of the week? Cars breakdown, that is a fact of life and we must give the dealer every opportunity to repair the vehicle.

If this is a recurring problem that is not being rectified then you may well have a very good case for further action. Have you considered simply documenting all the ongoing problems and keeping DCUK in the loop. My vehicle was bought back within five or six weeks, but that was with the full support of the dealership.

Regards,
John

John

Most people would have probably blown their tops by now, I did threaten to try to stick the ML somewhere whilst talking to my sarcastic service manager but the car is booked in tomorrow for a fault on the rear bumper and then to change the intercooler. Hopefully I will have it back before friday, if not then words will be said. I think it's fair to give then one last chance to sort this out so they have got till the end of the week.
Maybe I'm just too soft

 

[hawk20]

Here's the UK law on lemons: -
UK RIGHTS on LEMONS by the DTI
http://www.dti.gov.uk/consumers/fact-sheets/page9010.html

http://www.dti.gov.uk/consumers/fact-sheets/page24700.html
http://www.dti.gov.uk/consumers/Fact Sheets/page24700.html
Sale of Goods Act Fact Sheet
URN No: 05/1730


Subject: Sale of Goods Act, Faulty Goods.
Relevant or Related Legislation: Sale of Goods Act 1979. Supply of Goods and Services Act 1982. Sale and Supply of Goods Act 1994. The Sale and Supply of Goods to Consumers Regulations 2002.
Key Facts:
• Wherever goods are bought they must "conform to contract". This means they must be as described, fit for purpose and of satisfactory quality (i.e. not inherently faulty at the time of sale).
• Goods are of satisfactory quality if they reach the standard that a reasonable person would regard as satisfactory, taking into account the price and any description.
• Aspects of quality include fitness for purpose, freedom from minor defects, appearance and finish, durability and safety.
• It is the seller, not the manufacturer, who is responsible if goods do not conform to contract.
• If goods do not conform to contract at the time of sale, purchasers can request their money back "within a reasonable time". (This is not defined and will depend on circumstances)
• For up to six years after purchase (five years from discovery in Scotland) purchasers can demand damages (which a court would equate to the cost of a repair or replacement).
• A purchaser who is a consumer, i.e. is not buying in the course of a business, can alternatively request a repair or replacement.
• If repair and replacement are not possible or too costly, then the consumer can seek a partial refund, if they have had some benefit from the good, or a full refund if the fault/s have meant they have enjoyed no benefit
• In general, the onus is on all purchasers to prove the goods did not conform to contract (e.g. was inherently faulty) and should have reasonably lasted until this point in time (i.e. perishable goods do not last for six years).
• If a consumer chooses to request a repair or replacement, then for the first six months after purchase it will be for the retailer to prove the goods did conform to contract (e.g. were not inherently faulty)
• After six months and until the end of the six years, it is for the consumer to prove the lack of conformity.
Frequently Asked Questions (FAQs)
Q1. What is an inherent fault?
Q2. Do I only have rights for 30 [or some other number] days after purchase?
Q3. Do all goods have to last six (or five) years?
Q4. I know I can demand my money back within a "reasonable time" but how long is that?
Q5. After the "reasonable time has passed", what can I do?
Q6. Is it true that I have to complain to the manufacturer?
Q7. Do I have to produce a receipt?
Q8. Can I claim a refund on sale items?
Q9. Must I accept a credit note instead of a refund?
Q10. What can I do to claim damages or if the retailer will not honour my rights?
Q11. The retailer has claimed that a repair is "disproportionately costly" and insists I accept a replacement as an alternative. Must I accept this?
Q12. Neither repair nor replacement are possible. What can I do?
Q13. What will the "reversed burden of proof" mean for the consumer
-------------------------------
Q1. What is an inherent fault?
A fault present at the time of purchase. Examples are:
• an error in design so that a product is manufactured incorrectly
• an error in manufacturing where a faulty component was inserted.
The "fault" may not become apparent immediately but it was there at the time of sale and so the product was not of satisfactory standard.
Q2. Do I only have rights for 30 (or some other figure) days after purchase?
No. Depending on circumstances, you might be too late to have all your money back after this time, but the trader will still be liable for any breaches of contract, such as the goods being faulty. In fact, the trader could be liable to compensate you for up to six years.
Q3. Are all goods supposed to last six (or five) years?
No, that is the limit for bringing a court case in England and Wales (five years from the time of discovery in Scotland's case). An item only needs to last as long as it is reasonable to expect it to, taking into account all the factors. An oil filter would usually not last longer than a year but that would not mean it was unsatisfactory.
Q4. I know I can demand my money back within a "reasonable time" but how long is that?
The law does not specify a precise time as it will vary for most sales contracts as all the factors need to be taken into account to be fair to all sides. The pair of everyday shoes may only have a few days before the period expires but a pair of skis, purchased in a Summer Sale, may be allowed a longer period by a court.
Q5. After the "reasonable time" has passed, what can I do?
You may seek damages, which would be the amount of money necessary to have the goods repaired or replaced. Frequently retailers will themselves offer repair or replacement. But, if you are a consumer (not making the purchase in the course of a business) you have the statutory right to seek a repair or replacement as an alternative to seeking damages.
Q6. Is it true that I have to complain to the manufacturer?
No. You bought the goods from the trader, not the manufacturer, and the trader is liable for any breaches of contract (unless he was acting as the manufacturer's agent).
Q7. Do I have to produce a receipt to claim my rights?
No. In fact the trader doesn't have to give you a receipt in the first place so it would be unfair to say that you had to produce one. However, it might not be unreasonable for the shop to want some proof of purchase, so look to see if you have a cheque stub, bank statement, credit card slip etc., and this should be sufficient.
Q8. Can I claim a refund on sale items?
It depends on why you want to return them. The Sale of Goods Act still applies, but you are not entitled to a refund if you were told of the faults before purchase, or if the fault should have been obvious to you. Also, you are not entitled to a refund if you simply change your mind about liking the goods.
Q9. Must I accept a credit note instead of a refund?
It depends on why you want to return the goods.
• If you have changed your mind, then the shop doesn't have to do anything.
• But if the goods are faulty, incorrectly described or not fit for purpose, then you are entitled to your money back (provided you act quickly), and you certainly don't have to take a credit note
• If you do accept a credit note in these circumstances, watch out, as there may be restrictions on their use.
• If the shop displays a sign stating they only give credit notes instead of refunds, they might be breaking the law and you could report them to your local Trading Standards Department.
Q10. What can I do to claim damages or if the retailer will not honour my rights?
The Small Claims Court procedure provides the means to bring a claim, for up to £5000 (in England and Wales), at modest cost and without the need for a solicitor. Your local Citizens Advice Bureau can advise on how to make a claim.
Q11. The retailer has said that a repair is "disproportionately costly" and insists I accept a replacement as an alternative. Must I accept this?
Yes, and vice versa if you request a replacement and this is "disproportionately costly". However, remember any remedy has to be carried out "without significant inconvenience" and within a "reasonable time" for the consumer. Remember that you could also seek damages instead.
Q12. Neither repair nor replacement of the goods are possible. What can I do?
You may either pursue the old route of damages or a partial or full refund. Probably either would give you exactly the same amount of money. You would seek a full refund in scenarios such as those where you had enjoyed absolutely no benefit from the goods. If you had benefited from them then you would seek a partial refund as a fair remedy. This is exactly the reasoning that would be employed if you sought damages.
Q13. What does the "reversed burden of proof" mean for the consumer?
It means that for the first six months the consumer need not produce any evidence that a product was inherently faulty at the time of sale. If a consumer is seeking any other remedy the burden of proof remains with him/her.
In such a case, the retailer will either accept there was an inherent fault, and will offer a remedy, or he will dispute that it was inherently flawed. If the latter, when he inspects the product to analyse the cause, he may, for example, point out impact damage or stains that would be consistent with it having been mistreated in such a way as to bring about the fault.
This reversal of the usual burden of proof only applies when the consumer is seeking a repair or replacement. After the first six months the onus of proof is again on the consumer.

I hope this helps. Others may like to tuck it away somewhere, just in case.

 

[hawk20]

Mercedes have a Rapid Reaction team especially to solve cases like yours. Read the link below and maybe copy to your dealer. Hard though it may be, try to keep calm and polite. Difficult to do but it works best -usually.

You may find this article helpful; it will show you some details of the troubleshooting system, which should operate in your case: -
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/.../mfmerc101.xml

Here is an extract from Mike Belk After Sales Director
"But even that doesn't solve all the problems," says Belk. "A lot of the things we see are a number of problems with the same car. So we've now got a team of guys who go out and see customers, dealers and cars.
"They are highly technically literate and are also empowered commercially to do anything up to and including a buy-back of the car. They are some of the best guys that we've got and are our front line on solving issues.
"We decide how and where these guys are sent with a Rapid Reaction Group, which reviews all difficult cases. I set this up because I was fed up with the ping-pong match between customers, the customer centre, dealers and us. It was deeply unsatisfactory for the customer and it looked as if we weren't joined up…"


Sounds like you or your dealer should make contact. Good luck.