lets scream down the motorway, crash and film it!!

[artyman]

I also wonder how many other motorist were held up when the road was closed to clear the mess up.

 

[E55BOF]

sorry but i disagree, why was it the truck drivers fault? when he looked in the mirror the closing cars were miles back but closing at fifty mph over the speed limit . the truck driver didnt know that. it could have been another truck already in the outside lane for all he knew. the car drivers deserved all they got and they were incredibly lucky to walk away and not get carried away in a bag

The lorry looks to be showing it’s intention to change lanes in plenty of time yet they keep hurtling towards it regardless.

Do I assume, then, that when you move out to overtake, having looked in your mirrors to see if it's safe to do so, you then indicate and move out without looking in your mirrors again? I don't...

An indication of an intention to change lanes does not give the indicating vehicle right of way to change lanes; the vehicle already in the other lane has that.

All four parties involved were , in varying degrees, to blame for the accident.

 

[glojo]

Do I assume, then, that when you move out to overtake, having looked in your mirrors to see if it's safe to do so, you then indicate and move out without looking in your mirrors again? I don't...

An indication of an intention to change lanes does not give the indicating vehicle right of way to change lanes; the vehicle already in the other lane has that.

All four parties involved were , in varying degrees, to blame for the accident.

100% agree with your very wise words.

The HGV driver should have had one eye on that offside wing-mirror from the instant the indicator was applied until they had entered the lane they intended joining. The idiot in the speeding car was there to be seen and the HGV driver misjudged the speed. If that speeding car was an emergency vehicle, would that be any different? YES, a thousand times yes, the emergency response driver would NEVER have got into that situation

 

[neilrr]

Regardless of the speed of the other vehicles, the lorry driver has some considerable responsibility here IMO. If he'd stayed in his lane this RTC wouldn't have happened.

Multi-lane carriageways (133 to 143)

If you need to change lane, first use your mirrors and if necessary take a quick sideways glance to make sure you will not force another road user to change course or speed.

www.highwaycodeuk.co.uk

7. Multi-lane carriageways (133 to 143)​

Lane discipline​

133
If you need to change lane, first use your mirrors and if necessary take a quick sideways glance to make sure you will not force another road user to change course or speed. When it is safe to do so, signal to indicate your intentions to other road users and when clear, move over.

 

[ChipChop]

The start of this Northumbria Police video says that three drivers had appeared in court today after a four vehicle collision. One of the drivers involved was not required in court. I would imagine it was the truck driver who was not prosecuted.

Date and time stamp of the dashcam also shows it was 01:50 on 23/12/2017. Highly likely that at least one of the three car drivers involved were under the influence of alcohol or drugs.

 

[flying haggis]

100% agree with your very wise words.

The HGV driver should have had one eye on that offside wing-mirror from the instant the indicator was applied until they had entered the lane they intended joining. The idiot in the speeding car was there to be seen and the HGV driver misjudged the speed. If that speeding car was an emergency vehicle, would that be any different? YES, a thousand times yes, the emergency response driver would NEVER have got into that situation

the hgv driver probably did have one eye on the outside lane, but as he was only doing 56mph or less if he saw a car approaching from a distance it would be reasonable for him to assume that the car was approaching at 70, a difference of 14mph. in that case pulling out, passing a slower vehicle and pulling back in would have been accomplished in time for the car to pass safely. However because the muppets were closing on the truck at a speed difference of 60-65 mph that is not a scenario that should happen so why consider it. If it had of been an emergency vehicle there would have been plenty of warning signs ie blue lights, flashing headlights which wouls have been visible from a long way off, and as has been said the trained driver would have not got into the situation in the first place or if they did they would know how to deal with it safely. with crashes like these I think there should be a case for the insurance company (if insurance was actually held) to say to the driver who was doing 120mph your insurance is now invalid. we will compensate any injured parties and deal with the repairs etc but we WILL be seeking full reimbursement from you. surely insurance is a contract that will be honoured if you drive within the rules but if not we cancel your policy. same goes for people who flee from police and damage police cars and roadside fitings ie railings barriers whilst attempting to get away. the thought that chummy might have to personally fork out for a couple of new beemer for the police might stop some of these morons. it would also mean that premiums in general should come down as the insurance companies dont have to pay out such large sums.

 

[glojo]

the hgv driver probably did have one eye on the outside lane, but as he was only doing 56mph or less if he saw a car approaching from a distance it would be reasonable for him to assume

Hi Haggis
Sadly that is where your whole well wrote pointy falls down.

What if...... What if.... I can think of a dozen reasons or more why motor vehicles can legally exceed speed limits and with the greatest of respect, that truck driver MIGHt have assumed it was one such vehicle.

How many times to drivers, riders say, "I looked but the road was clearr"

I accept that in some types of Star Trek movies folks get 'beamed down' but in the real world even a speeding vehicle simply does not miraculously appear. that truck driver is either driving without due care and attention which is likely, or driving without reasonable consideration for other road users.

By using that an indicator we are informing other road users of an intention. The onus is on us when we alter course or change lanes, the driver of that truck has a responsibility and it is no use trying to claim the offending car was speeding so tough luck||

Oh and there are dozens of reasons why emergency vehicles might not be displaying blue lights!!

 

[flying haggis]

but even if emergency vehicles legally exceed the speed limits as one of you examples they will still be treated as though the should not have been. just the same as if they go through a red light, they dont have automatic rights to do so. when we drive I and everybody else would not naturally assume that the car we can see behind us is doing 110mph plus so we assume they are doing roughly the same speed as us. as I said before the truck driver may have been signalling to move for some time before actually changing lanes

 

[E55BOF]

So he may, but signalling does not give right of way, and he moved out when it was not safe to do so. 'I assumed' = I made a mistake. I don't assume that a car coming up behind me is travelling at any pasrticular speed; I use my mirrors to assess that speed. Never assume; accidents can happen that way, and on this occasion one did, though most of the time they do not. The three car drivers bear the lion's share of the blame, but the lorry driver was at fault too.

 

[Deleted member 149005]

How about this organ donor?..

Moment 180 mph motorcyclist in T-shirt is caught

The 19-year-old, filmed by a police helicopter, went through red lights and the wrong way on a motorway.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Deleted member 65149]

but even if emergency vehicles legally exceed the speed limits as one of you examples they will still be treated as though the should not have been. just the same as if they go through a red light, they dont have automatic rights to do so. when we drive I and everybody else would not naturally assume that the car we can see behind us is doing 110mph plus so we assume they are doing roughly the same speed as us. as I said before the truck driver may have been signalling to move for some time before actually changing lanes

I assume ( ) that you missed glojo's highlighted "assume". As E55BOF also reminded you, every time you assume something whilst driving you're making a possible dangerous mistake. Never make an assumption whilst driving, whether it be the speed of another vehicle, the road conditions, the intentions of another driver or most of all your own driving ability.

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

The start of this Northumbria Police video says that three drivers had appeared in court today after a four vehicle collision. One of the drivers involved was not required in court. I would imagine it was the truck driver who was not prosecuted.

Date and time stamp of the dashcam also shows it was 01:50 on 23/12/2017. Highly likely that at least one of the three car drivers involved were under the influence of alcohol or drugs.

That’s correct, they named each of the three car drivers whilst driving, and then showed photos and names of those prosecuted - it was the same three names.

 

[Dryce]

The lorry indicated and started to move into the path of an overtaking vehicle when it was not safe to do so. That's not acting reasonably, and it is clear from the video that the white SEAT was quite close to the lorry when it began to move across. The lorry driver was in the wrong and caused the accident.

It depends.

There is simple question. If the vehicles had been driven within the speed limit woud the accident have happened.

The limits exist for a reason. It's to give other road users sufficient time and space to assess situations and make decisions. Speeding undermines that. If you go unreasonably fast then you are undermining that.

However - it also has to be said that the convention of lorry driving seems to be that they are allowed to pull out with only limited consideration for car drivers who are expected to slow down. It's a normal hazard of motorway and DC driving that trucks will pull out with minimal consideration for faster drivers hey are about to either impede.

But under normal traffic conditions car drivers have time to react and slow down or change lane.

So ..... go back to the simple question. We allow bad habits by truck drivers to become the norm. Add in a couple of idiots who were exceeding the speed limit. Their fault completely if we accept what truck drivers do daily and they turned a normal situation into an accident. Less so if we don't accept that - in which case we have to address how a large number HGV drivers behave as if it were normal.

 

[190]

While truck drivers pulling out and causing other vehicles to slow is clearly not abiding by the highway code, we might put ourselves in their shoes and consider the reason they are more prone to do it. Truck drivers value momentum far more than car drivers. They don't want to slow 40 tonnes and accelerate it again if they can help it. I think that cuts them a little bit of slack up to a point.

 

[glojo]

Disagree with most, if not all what Dryce is suggesting but please, let's all look in the mirror and possibly see the face of someone that might have forgotten how to respect other road users. What on earth has happened to courtesy and good manners? How difficult is it to slightly ease off the accelerator to allow ANY motor vehicle to merge from the slip road onto the nearside lane? How easy is it to check our rear-view mirror and if possible change lanes to allow a motor vehicle onto that nearside lane. manners maketh man but today, it seems to be all about 'road rage'

Just remember this very simple FACT. Our largest HGV trucks are hauling in excess of 40 tons yup, forty of those pesky tons. If we all refuse to allow these hgvs to merge onto the motorway, then when this truck reaches the end of the slip road they will have to stop and wait.

Fine I hear you all say BUT..... just think about our ignorant acts. That truck will then eventually join the motorway at a crawl!!! If you think speeding is dangerous then what about a truck traveling at 5mph!!!!! Yup, for a very short period of my life I was an HGV driver and thankfully I drove in an era when folks had better manners than we might have today. Dryce calls it 'bad habits' by truck drivers and I am NOT condoning ANY truck simply pulls out onto the nearside lane but what I am saying is that we as car drivers MIGHT, just MIGHT show a little more consideration for that type of motor vehicle. if we are in the nearside lane and in the distance we can see that HGV with its offside indicator flashing then here's a suggestion. Check our rearview mirror and if it is safe to do so, then indicate with the offside indicator (to let the hgv driver know your intent) and then gently pull out of the nearside lane. After passing that HGV it is possible that they will thank you!! Imagine that, someone showing us respect.

Instead, I read these posts and some portray, 'I'm in the right, you are in the wrong and I am not moving!'

If a car is speeding that does NOT ever give us justification to cause an incident. most countries have different speed limits so how on earth do drivers in Germany cope on their autobahns? I guess their drivers might be better trained than ours.

I keep harping on about those that have not done so, then they should consider paying for an advanced driving course. These courses are there for folks that want to get far more out of their driving. They are not there to turn anyone into a sports-type driver, they are there to make us safer drivers, make us more aware of other road users, make us more aware of hazards, dangers etc, make us better drivers that could if they want make progress in a safer manner and by making progress we will get from A to B quicker than we do before we take this type of course.

 

[renault12ts]

Anyway...isn't it remarkable the amount of damgae suffered by each of these cars?

30 years ago ( or fewer) they'd have been toast crashing at that speed.

 

[Deleted member 65149]

Disagree with most, if not all what Dryce is suggesting but please, let's all look in the mirror and possibly see the face of someone that might have forgotten how to respect other road users. What on earth has happened to courtesy and good manners? How difficult is it to slightly ease off the accelerator to allow ANY motor vehicle to merge from the slip road onto the nearside lane? How easy is it to check our rear-view mirror and if possible change lanes to allow a motor vehicle onto that nearside lane. manners maketh man but today, it seems to be all about 'road rage'

Just remember this very simple FACT. Our largest HGV trucks are hauling in excess of 40 tons yup, forty of those pesky tons. If we all refuse to allow these hgvs to merge onto the motorway, then when this truck reaches the end of the slip road they will have to stop and wait.

Fine I hear you all say BUT..... just think about our ignorant acts. That truck will then eventually join the motorway at a crawl!!! If you think speeding is dangerous then what about a truck traveling at 5mph!!!!! Yup, for a very short period of my life I was an HGV driver and thankfully I drove in an era when folks had better manners than we might have today. Dryce calls it 'bad habits' by truck drivers and I am NOT condoning ANY truck simply pulls out onto the nearside lane but what I am saying is that we as car drivers MIGHT, just MIGHT show a little more consideration for that type of motor vehicle. if we are in the nearside lane and in the distance we can see that HGV with its offside indicator flashing then here's a suggestion. Check our rearview mirror and if it is safe to do so, then indicate with the offside indicator (to let the hgv driver know your intent) and then gently pull out of the nearside lane. After passing that HGV it is possible that they will thank you!! Imagine that, someone showing us respect.

Instead, I read these posts and some portray, 'I'm in the right, you are in the wrong and I am not moving!'

If a car is speeding that does NOT ever give us justification to cause an incident. most countries have different speed limits so how on earth do drivers in Germany cope on their autobahns? I guess their drivers might be better trained than ours.

I keep harping on about those that have not done so, then they should consider paying for an advanced driving course. These courses are there for folks that want to get far more out of their driving. They are not there to turn anyone into a sports-type driver, they are there to make us safer drivers, make us more aware of other road users, make us more aware of hazards, dangers etc, make us better drivers that could if they want make progress in a safer manner and by making progress we will get from A to B quicker than we do before we take this type of course.

I've completely agreed with everything you've said on this subject, up to now. Courtesy and respect are important of course, but should be thought about and extended to all.

When entering a motorway it's the responsibility of the driver on the slip road to adjust their speed to merge into the traffic on the nearside lane. If the vehicles already on the motorway are moving at a safe distance apart then that already leaves sufficient space to move into without anyone changing speed or lane. Ideally, that safe gap should be increased a bit in anticipation of reaching the well signposted slip road so that speed and gap are constant by the time the slip road comes into view. This is important. As I said earlier, it's the role of the vehicle on the slip road to merge into the traffic already on the motorway - if that traffic is changing speed or lane whilst the driver of the vehicle on the slip is checking to adjust speed to merge, it makes that task all the harder. By the time their just reaching the point of entry and check their mirrors to confirm that they've got it right, the vehicle they've calculated to merge in behind is no longer where expected so the only safe option is to brake whilst reassessing the situation. That's not good for a multitude of reasons.

If you're batting along at 70mph and you can see well behind you that there's nobody catching you at an even higher speed, then by all means move out a lane WELL BEFORE THE ENTRY SLIP. This makes the task easier for traffic entering. But if you're only doing 60 and there's no faster car in sight behind, it's fairly inevitable that there will be by the time you've passed the entry slip, so don't hold them up just to make life a bit easier for someone else entering the motorway. That courtesy should extend to everyone.

On the subject of Germany's autobahns, I've driven them a few times. It's dangerous to assume their drivers are better trained. I've had cars pull out in front of me when I'm doing over 140mph, close enough for me to have to brake fairly heavily. Of course just because the cars had German plates didn't mean they had German drivers, but I soon learnt not to expect better standards and instead keep my high speeds to places where there was at least one empty lane between me and the slower vehicles I was passing.

However, I do agree with you about the value of advanced driving courses. I spent a week on an ambulance driving course many years ago, and what an intensive course it was. When you have a seriously injured passenger lying in the back of your vehicle you have to drive with far more care than most people could imagine. More recently (when I turned 70) I took a one hour assessment with an IAM RoadSmart examiner. I'm pleased to say that he was impressed because I still retained the skills and knowledge I'd learnt on the ambulance training. I'm still not a great driver (nor ever will be now), but at least I try instead of just thinking of my car as a means of getting from A to B.

 

[glojo]

Hi Knight
What you are saying is 100% correct but whilst it is relatively easy for a car to raise or lower its speed to merge from the slip road, onto that nearside lane. Is it as easy for a truck hauling 40 tons or more to do this?. I have only driven trucks hauling 30 tons and if I lifted off the throttle whilst going up a very slight incline or if I reduced my speed by even two or three miles per hour then momentum is lost.

You are 100% correct but PLEASE do not read into my post what is not there. IF, for any reason we cannot show any courtesy to ANY motor vehicle wanting to merge into the nearside lane then yes, two wrongs do not make one right.

YES a thousand times yes, we have bad drivers in every country, and when we travel at high speeds then we need to ensure other road users are aware of our presence. If we all think back to the last time we read the Highway Code we will know that the flashing of headlights should only be done to warn other road users of our presence and yes, I accept that is very rarely the reason why we give that quick flash