london to export it's poor?

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Yes, but I stopped short of expressing political views on this thread. ;)

Talking of which... such headline-grabbing comments about housing the poor and other social welfare issues made by politicians near election time are sadly too often disingenuous - and this applies equally to all political parties.
 
I have worked as a University Lecturer, (computer science) so I would probably be classed as educated and positively involved in education, I certainly feel that children/students should be encouraged to make the most of their potential.

Positional good - it isn't an argument against education, it is why our universities need to compete internationally and must continually improve their provision.

It is also an acknowledgement that education is not the answer to social inequality. For every socially mobile working class child that does well there will be thousands that fail to jump the hurdles placed in their way.

addendum--

Privilege is very difficult to overcome. Children brought up with parents that prioritise work do better than those that have less positive role models. Children that know about the professions are more likely to enter into them. I could add another dozen reasons why education works well for some and is a barrier to others.

It is the way we have designed it. The political class sell us a narrative at each election where they assure us that education is a panacea, it will give your children a chance to excel. And so it is for those that it suits. It has consistently failed to provide social mobility and equal opportunity and I don't think it ever will.

It would be nice if it did.
First I'll apologise for insinuating that you're not educated, nor interested in education. I was just trying to elicit a response, and I'm pleased that I succeeded.


I actually agree with much of what you say in your response. One area where we seem to differ is in our definition of education in this discussion. Your words imply that you’re only thinking about formal education, but to me it’s a far more holistic creature. Education starts from the moment we’re born. Parents have to be made aware of this – it’s they who have to be educated. Formal education is extremely important and must not be ignored, but it’s not everything. I don’t remember anyone proclaiming that education is a panacea, more that it is one of many important building blocks in establishing a better lifestyle for everyone. It provides us with the tools to help us to develop an understanding of what’s available, of what we can do and of what we need to do. It doesn’t hand us anything on a plate, but it does help us to make more informed choices about our future.

You talk about working class children having hurdles placed in their way. What are those hurdles that the rest don’t have to jump? What, indeed, is your definition of “working class”?

I’ve always thought of myself as middle class; I was raised in a 3-bedroom rented semi in London with my 6 siblings. My father was a bookkeeper and my mother made dresses from home. We didn’t have a lot of money, only ever eating out during our once-every-3-years England holidays. I still remember the first new item of clothing that I had: a shirt when I started secondary school. Before that it was all hand-me-downs from my brothers. But we children learnt that we had to work hard and study hard, initially in order to survive and hopefully in order to succeed. We never thought that there were hurdles in our way, just ladders to success. We were never jealous of the privileges apparently held by others, instead using them as targets to aim for. It was all a frame of mind instilled in us by our hard working parents, parents who understood and valued the importance of education. But we never called ourselves working class, perhaps because we weren’t educated enough to know what that meant?

My wife also says that she came from a middle class background. She spent her first few years living in a yurt with her 6 siblings and then moved to a 2-bedroom rented flat in a communist block in the capital. Her family had nothing other than each other. Her father was a lorry driver away for days on end, her mother worked in a school kitchen. By the age of 7 or 8 my wife was out working every weekend in a market outside in temperatures below –25 degrees. During the week she’d walk a few miles back and forth to school, never missing a day because all her family knew how important it was. They all worked like nobody in this country could comprehend. But she still thought of herself as middle class. She aimed high and succeeded, despite hurdles that you couldn’t start to understand. She never felt that anyone owed her anything.

And what is “privilege”? Is it being born into a wealthy family who can afford to send you to the best schools and universities (so they can brag to their friends!), and hand everything to you that you ask for? Or is it being born into a family that loves you and respects others, a family that appreciates all that it has and doesn’t expect to be given anything. I think it’s the latter; my wife and I are privileged.

So I can’t agree with “hurdles being placed in their way”. Those “hurdles” are imaginary and placed there by themselves and their peers. Positive thinking will remove most hurdles and treat the rest as learning opportunities – as education!

So I’m sorry, I still don’t understand any of your reasoning for saying that “education is a barrier to others”. We all have different abilities; education allows us to discover and hone those abilities. Formal education alone hasn’t provided social mobility and equal opportunity, but it has been a contributory factor. An education in life skills is equally important. The only real hurdle that any of us has is the barrier in our brains, the hurdle implanted by others, that tells us we can’t succeed because our competitors are better off. Application, drive, and determination are key for progress, but encouragement through positive support as part of a holistic education is equally essential. Education can not and must not be a barrier. There are no barriers or hurdles, just challenges and opportunities.
 
Okay- I will try my best. I fell we have a lot in common, but there are some things you say that I see as optimistic or that fail to grasp the difficulties faced by the educational establishment when exhorted to bring excellence to the inner city. (which is the context of this discussion?)

First I'll apologise for insinuating that you're not educated, nor interested in education. I was just trying to elicit a response, and I'm pleased that I succeeded.
no bother - I tend to think education is over rated so you were reasonably fair. I do think education is an excellent thing I just don't see it as effective method of social engineering.

I actually agree with much of what you say in your response. One area where we seem to differ is in our definition of education in this discussion. Your words imply that you’re only thinking about formal education, but to me it’s a far more holistic creature. Education starts from the moment we’re born. Parents have to be made aware of this – it’s they who have to be educated. Formal education is extremely important and must not be ignored, but it’s not everything. I don’t remember anyone proclaiming that education is a panacea, more that it is one of many important building blocks in establishing a better lifestyle for everyone. It provides us with the tools to help us to develop an understanding of what’s available, of what we can do and of what we need to do. It doesn’t hand us anything on a plate, but it does help us to make more informed choices about our future.
I agree but I don't know how we get out of the circle of deprivation. Although I thought the Blair 'education education education' initiatives were worth a try, throwing money at the problem doesn't seem to have worked.

You talk about working class children having hurdles placed in their way. What are those hurdles that the rest don’t have to jump? What, indeed, is your definition of “working class”?
Okay-- leaving aside working class, one of the defining features of a middleclass attitude is 'deferred gratification' ie. work hard do your internship, pay your dues etc, coin it in in your forties. This needs a pretty secure personal self worth, confidence in your abilities and family support helps a great deal. If that support is missing then your chances are blighted. Something like one in a hundred children in care achieve a university education. I guess the working class are in somewhere in between.

I’ve always thought of myself as middle class; I was raised in a 3-bedroom rented semi in London with my 6 siblings. My father was a bookkeeper and my mother made dresses from home. We didn’t have a lot of money, only ever eating out during our once-every-3-years England holidays. I still remember the first new item of clothing that I had: a shirt when I started secondary school. Before that it was all hand-me-downs from my brothers. But we children learnt that we had to work hard and study hard, initially in order to survive and hopefully in order to succeed. We never thought that there were hurdles in our way, just ladders to success. We were never jealous of the privileges apparently held by others, instead using them as targets to aim for. It was all a frame of mind instilled in us by our hard working parents, parents who understood and valued the importance of education. But we never called ourselves working class, perhaps because we weren’t educated enough to know what that meant?
I don't want to come over as particularly right wing but this is typical of a 'pre-entitlement' generation. Things have changed as a result of mass unemployment, universal education and a decent safety net, understandably, and probably a price worth paying even if it is the poorest that are the hardest hit.

My wife also says that she came from a middle class background. She spent her first few years living in a yurt with her 6 siblings and then moved to a 2-bedroom rented flat in a communist block in the capital. Her family had nothing other than each other. Her father was a lorry driver away for days on end, her mother worked in a school kitchen. By the age of 7 or 8 my wife was out working every weekend in a market outside in temperatures below –25 degrees. During the week she’d walk a few miles back and forth to school, never missing a day because all her family knew how important it was. They all worked like nobody in this country could comprehend. But she still thought of herself as middle class. She aimed high and succeeded, despite hurdles that you couldn’t start to understand. She never felt that anyone owed her anything.
so she had little entitlement and was inspired to move forward, fair enough, unless we are prepared to put our poorest into poverty for a generation I can't see how her example helps us.

And what is “privilege”? Is it being born into a wealthy family who can afford to send you to the best schools and universities (so they can brag to their friends!), and hand everything to you that you ask for? Or is it being born into a family that loves you and respects others, a family that appreciates all that it has and doesn’t expect to be given anything. I think it’s the latter; my wife and I are privileged.
I would go for both being pretty useful, Eton being an excellent example of paying for a positional good, it increases your chances of being in the cabinet, having a supportive family is good but it does not do the job on its own.

So I can’t agree with “hurdles being placed in their way”. Those “hurdles” are imaginary and placed there by themselves and their peers. Positive thinking will remove most hurdles and treat the rest as learning opportunities – as education!
The hurdles may not be statutory or concrete but they do exist. Poor schools, poor neighbourhoods, poor parents, an xbox in your bedroom, people that don't speak and park their kids in front of CITV from the age of nought. It is becoming quite normal for each years primary intake in some schools to not even be potty trained. Addiction, neglect, abuse, even telling a child that it is stupid can do long term damage. I don't think I would want to live in a society that managed to prevent these problems, allowing children to fail is easier and possibly healthier for us all.

then you said
So I’m sorry, I still don’t understand any of your reasoning for saying that “education is a barrier to others”. We all have different abilities; education allows us to discover and hone those abilities. Formal education alone hasn’t provided social mobility and equal opportunity, but it has been a contributory factor. An education in life skills is equally important. The only real hurdle that any of us has is the barrier in our brains, the hurdle implanted by others, that tells us we can’t succeed because our competitors are better off. Application, drive, and determination are key for progress, but encouragement through positive support as part of a holistic education is equally essential. Education can not and must not be a barrier. There are no barriers or hurdles, just challenges and opportunities.

I know why you say this, I agree that it would be great if we could build a meritocratic society, but I just cannot conceive of any way our political leadership can or will successfully address the problems. We are stuck in an ofsted led league table tick box spiral of decline. When you look at the PISA tables and correlate success and the systems that produce it it is clear that our education secretary is utterly uninterested in any sort of evidence based reform, pleasing the Daily Mail and pandering to the prejudices of parents have much greater sway on policy.

Just sayin.
 
Okay- I will try my best. .......


The hurdles may not be statutory or concrete but they do exist. Poor schools, poor neighbourhoods, poor parents, an xbox in your bedroom, people that don't speak and park their kids in front of CITV from the age of nought. It is becoming quite normal for each years primary intake in some schools to not even be potty trained. Addiction, neglect, abuse, even telling a child that it is stupid can do long term damage. I don't think I would want to live in a society that managed to prevent these problems, allowing children to fail is easier and possibly healthier for us all.

then you said


I know why you say this, I agree that it would be great if we could build a meritocratic society, but I just cannot conceive of any way our political leadership can or will successfully address the problems. We are stuck in an ofsted led league table tick box spiral of decline. When you look at the PISA tables and correlate success and the systems that produce it it is clear that our education secretary is utterly uninterested in any sort of evidence based reform, pleasing the Daily Mail and pandering to the prejudices of parents have much greater sway on policy.

Just sayin.

Yes, YES and YESSSSSSS. We are actually on the same wavelength, most particularly in your final two paragraphs that I've included as your quote.

Surely the only way we can get parents to be better (highlighted red part of your penultimate para) is through education. Today's children are tomorrow's parents so at least we could start there. That's what I mean about education needing to be holistic.

Which takes me on to your final paragraph and the dreaded Ofsted. The sooner we can get out of league tables the sooner all our children will benefit. Overall checks on every school's performance are necessary of course, but putting ticked boxes before real education makes my blood boil - as I've said at many a school governors meeting!!

We agree :thumb:
 

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