M104 300e-24

Chicane

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Hello chaps,
As some of you might have seen from another thread on here - I recently tiptoed between a AMG 3.4 and a 300E-24.

Lack of paperwork and documentation on the AMG making it impossible to import in the end I went for the 300E-24.

Specs are:

300E-24 NON-KAT 231 BHP Manual sportline.
Sports chassis, E500 leather interior ordered from factory.

Now my plans for it is keeping it fairly stock, but I do hanker after some more power.

So choice #1
- 2x custom cams,, brand new ones with another duration and lift. ( 1300 quid)
- Exhaust, stainless from the manifolds and all the way out, complete everything installed and fitted (1700 quid)

This should yield around 25-40 bhp when set up properly.


Choice #2: Convert to electronic fuel injection - would likely cost the same all in.

Choice #3: E36 Engine transplant - around 4.000 quid including labour and parts.


What would be the best choice here?
 
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carat 3.6

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Hi Axel,

the car looks quite subtle in white, you could make a real "wolf in sheeps clothing" out of it.:thumb:

choice #1. I wouldnt worry about the cams in the early m104 unless your building a wild engine, they are fairly aggressive from the factory. Plus having too much lift and duration may cause a problem with the air flow metering plate of the cis injection. A free flow exhaust system will help power, and you can "borrow" a set of tubular exhaust manifolds from the bmw m20 or m30 engines. The port spacing is the same, it's just a case of welding on some flanges to suit the mercedes head.

Choice #2. A well setup efi system would see some good gains in bhp and tourqe, aswell as giving some flexability for future engine modificatons. (such as a turbo or supercharger ;)).

Choice #3. The e36 engine swap is a good idea if you want to keep things factory looking, but to get power past 270bhp it would need an aftermarket managment system anyway. Plus the 3.6 ecu wont allow you to use a manual gearbox.


Then there are other options such as v8 swaps, itb setups, ect...

Depends how much power your looking for, and what your budget is.
 
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Chicane

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It clearly says 170KW which is 231, branding it as the NON-KAT engine.
Then it says in the options it still has the KAT?
Crap, I wanted a non-kat engine :(
 
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Chicane

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hm

Spoke with Thorsten stadler of 190teile.de

Probably one of the most knowledgeable on the KE jetronic system out there.
They race these cars and pick up where most of the MB workshops give up.
They also build and rebuild these engines.

Told me basically no point in cams on this car. Yes you could get perhaps 10 more horsepower at the expense of driveability, rough idle etc. Told me I would end up hating my car for so little gain. Added that "yes, if it took you up to 300 horsepower it would be worth it. this is impossible with this car"

Exhaust and manifolds are very well designed already. No point at all. AMG tried on the 2.5-16 with a dual instead of single and ended up losing 2 horsepower.

Basically he told me "look I can make you loads of fancy exhaust and cams and earn good money doing it, but then you will be asking me "where are the gains?" ".

He then recommended a thorough checkup and getting it back to factory tolerances and performance. He reckoned most 300E-24s out there put out 180-190 bhp nowadays and tired ones even less.

Get it running right first, take it for a full inspection - rebuild the JETronic if neccessary and engine if compression is low.

I will comply :bannana:
 

bolide

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I agree. £4000 for 25-40 horsepower is nuts!

If it's like other W124 engines of this era, the bottom end will be perfect but the top end will benefit from a refresh. If you rebuild the top end, refresh the injectors (if they need it) and put in a new timing chain & tensioner it'll be good for another 150k

You could raise the CR by taking a slice off the head but I don't know what CR these engines run and would expect the piston-valve clearance to be pretty tight anyway. Probably best to leave well alone...

Nick Froome
 
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Chicane

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And a few gratious photos....




 
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Chicane

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According to some spanish MB enthusiasts Ive spoken too some of the cars have the SL-engine which is 231 bhp with the KAT. explains the mystery if thats the case...

I realise its not the most beautiful color nor does it have a very high spec, however it has everything I need and nothing I dont. Manual gearbox, sports seats, sports chassis. Well chuffed really.

It may well look like ""a fooken taxi" but I`ll wipe the grins off their faces when I shift down to third and let the wailing straight six get to work ;)

Will probably be out baiting Audi A4 2.0 TDI S-line repmobiles all summer =P
 
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carat 3.6

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According to some spanish MB enthusiasts Ive spoken too some of the cars have the SL-engine which is 231 bhp with the KAT. explains the mystery if thats the case...

I realise its not the most beautiful color nor does it have a very high spec, however it has everything I need and nothing I dont. Manual gearbox, sports seats, sports chassis. Well chuffed really.

It may well look like ""a fooken taxi" but I`ll wipe the grins off their faces when I shift down to third and let the wailing straight six get to work ;)

Will probably be out baiting Audi A4 2.0 TDI S-line repmobiles all summer =P
Axle,

The engine found in the sl, only makes more power because the sl has a better designed exhaust system than the w124. The exhaust on these engines makes a big difference to performance, thats why the 3.4 has a true dual exhaust system.

On a standard 300e-24 I removed the front exhaust box (resonator in my case, but a kat on your car), and replaced the rear box with an old remus silencer. The engine would rev alot more freely after that, definitely made an improvement to acceleration too.

I do agree that the first thing to do, is give the engine a good check over to see what health it is in.
 
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Chicane

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Axle,

The engine found in the sl, only makes more power because the sl has a better designed exhaust system than the w124. The exhaust on these engines makes a big difference to performance, thats why the 3.4 has a true dual exhaust system.

On a standard 300e-24 I removed the front exhaust box (resonator in my case, but a kat on your car), and replaced the rear box with an old remus silencer. The engine would rev alot more freely after that, definitely made an improvement to acceleration too.

I do agree that the first thing to do, is give the engine a good check over to see what health it is in.
I see! Strange that Thorsten believed otherwise, he would have made good money on making me an exhaust!

But Ive checked on mercedes EDC homepage, its definately registered as a 300E-24 KAT with 231 bhp.
Weird.
 

carat 3.6

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I see! Strange that Thorsten believed otherwise, he would have made good money on making me an exhaust!

But Ive checked on mercedes EDC homepage, its definately registered as a 300E-24 KAT with 231 bhp.
Weird.
Have you got a picture of the engine? Or better still has the car got an air pump?
 
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Chicane

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No idea, I`ll see if I can get an image of the engine bay.
Regarding the exhaust, I spesifically asked him - is there anything to be had by fitting a more freeflowing exhaust?
He said that you will get a nicer sound and perhaps a few horses at most, but that the 300E-24 exhaust was well-designed already.
I also asked him about the M20 and M30 tubular BMW tubular exhaust manifolds, where he reponded that on the 2.5-16, AMG offered a dual exhaust on their power pack costing 20.000 DM - but this ended up LOSING 2 horsepowers compared to the single one! Not a single one of the power pack 190E cars matched their 225 bhp listed effect!

This is the guy running www.190teile.de , they are racing 190`s KE-jetronic cars for a living so its interesting hearing about the discrepancies in opinion amongst you experts!
As a wet-behind-the-ears rookie, all I can do is watch!
 
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grober

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Great believer in tuned length freeflow tubular exhaust manifolds. They may not yield that much more power but the sheer tractability thro-out the lower rev range is a revelation. The car will pull so much better and the 300-24v has a rep for lack of low down torque compared to the later 320 with its variable inlet manifold and different cams.
 
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Chicane

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Indeed I would have thought so also.
 

carat 3.6

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The 2.5 16v had tubular manifolds from the factory, so you wont see as much of a gain on that car. The 300e-24 had cast log maifolds, so you will see quite a gain by fitting an equal length manifold.

Have a look at these threads: http://www.benzworld.org/forums/w202-c36-amg-c43-amg/1610904-m104-headers-real.html
http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum...130-performance-header-m103-m104-engines.html
http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/performance-paddock/304223-exhaust-manifold-flanges.html

If I remember correctly amg or Brabus may have done them.
 
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Chicane

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I am a big fan of empirical evidence, so what I will do is do a full engine checkup this spring with a rebuild if necessary.

Will be dynoed both before and after. Then Ill most likely do a new custom exhaust with tubular headers and dyno that also.

And if it shows up less than stock there is an invoice heading your way simon! =D
 

carat 3.6

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I am a big fan of empirical evidence, so what I will do is do a full engine checkup this spring with a rebuild if necessary.

Will be dynoed both before and after. Then Ill most likely do a new custom exhaust with tubular headers and dyno that also.

And if it shows up less than stock there is an invoice heading your way simon! =D
Lol! :D

You know you've always wanted a writhing, stainless steel masterpiece.
 

carat 3.6

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Axle,

If it turns out that the engine does need a rebuild, that would be the ideal time to build a bigger one. Get hold of a good 3.2 bottom end, and fit the 300-24 head and timing chain setup onto it. That's an easy way for a few more hp that wont cost very much.
 

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