M177 AMG 4.0S engine in Aston DB11

[Engadine]

The V8 engined DB11 uses this engine. I have previously driven V12 DB11s and not been hugely impressed. I just drove a V8 DB11 across Europe and found it a much more rounded car. However as the owner of a AMG with the same engine (albeit tuned in Brabus form) I am amazed that it is the same engine, as the character and feel is so different in the Aston.

Officially, it is exactly the AMG S engine with the same power and marginally less torque. Not sure why Aston didn't tune it up a bit, maybe they would have invalidated their bulk buy warranty from AMG..It comes with a plate saying it was hand made in England, which is funny. But seriously, this engine sounds and acts quite different. It has a metallic, Aston type sound, not a throaty exhausty AMG barble. Throttle response is sharper even in soft mode (called GT). I would have bet on it being a completely different engine. Aston has its own exhaust system, but it also seems to create induction sound, which it could, and mechanical noises, which it can't.

It also feels fast, though that's due to the sensations through the chassis and proximity to the ground.

Very interesting and I wonder how Aston does it without actually changing anything in the ECU, or mechanicals. It must just be exhaust, and maybe air intake. Intriguing.

 

[nn7man]

Got a DBX 707 arriving next month with the wick on the M177 turned up a lot lot more. I will report back

 

[f17ant]

The V8 engined DB11 uses this engine. I have previously driven V12 DB11s and not been hugely impressed. I just drove a V8 DB11 across Europe and found it a much more rounded car. However as the owner of a AMG with the same engine (albeit tuned in Brabus form) I am amazed that it is the same engine, as the character and feel is so different in the Aston.

Officially, it is exactly the AMG S engine with the same power and marginally less torque. Not sure why Aston didn't tune it up a bit, maybe they would have invalidated their bulk buy warranty from AMG..It comes with a plate saying it was hand made in England, which is funny. But seriously, this engine sounds and acts quite different. It has a metallic, Aston type sound, not a throaty exhausty AMG barble. Throttle response is sharper even in soft mode (called GT). I would have bet on it being a completely different engine. Aston has its own exhaust system, but it also seems to create induction sound, which it could, and mechanical noises, which it can't.

It also feels fast, though that's due to the sensations through the chassis and proximity to the ground.

Very interesting and I wonder how Aston does it without actually changing anything in the ECU, or mechanicals. It must just be exhaust, and maybe air intake. Intriguing.

Maybe all the drivetrain isn’t bought from AMG just the engine ? That’s why the torque is turned down (im not saying this is fact I’m just throwing a idea out there!)

 

[Engadine]

707 is much better to drive than the standard DBX, which was a bit vanilla. look forward to hearing your views on the engine..also hand made in England!

 

[Engadine]

Maybe all the drivetrain isn’t bought from AMG just the engine ? That’s why the torque is turned down (im not saying this is fact I’m just throwing a idea out there!)

It's true, just the engine not the drivetrain. But that doesn't explain the different sound and feel of the engine, or maybe it does explain the feel to an extent

 

[Jobsworth]

It's true, just the engine not the drivetrain. But that doesn't explain the different sound and feel of the engine, or maybe it does explain the feel to an extent

I don’t know the technicalities of the Aston, but final drive ratio can make a huge difference to how a power train feels. I swapped the final drive on my M3 from 3.65:1 to 4.10:1. The car feels so much more muscular, like it has another 100bhp the punch out of corners is so different. It’s the same engine, nothing has changed there.

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

If I remember right Aston Martin used their own intake and exhaust, and tuned the sound to remove the low frequency AMG “rumble” and accentuate the higher frequencies, and hence what you described as being more metallic sounding. If I remember right the ECU is completely different; not just the tune, which will adjust the torque delivery but not necessarily the sound.

 

[Engadine]

I don’t know the technicalities of the Aston, but final drive ratio can make a huge difference to how a power train feels. I swapped the final drive on my M3 from 3.65:1 to 4.10:1. The car feels so much more muscular, like it has another 100bhp the punch out of corners is so different. It’s the same engine, nothing has changed there.

Interesting. The final drive ratio is different, in the Aston it is 2.7:1 and in the Mercedes (in C63S form) is 2.82.1. Meanwhile the gear ratios are different also, the Aston gear ratios at a quick glance looking like they are somewhere between the shorter coupe/cabrio ratios in the C63S and the longer ratios in the saloon/estate.

Certainly driving through London, as I did today, it doesn't feel any more muscular than my engine, in fact less so as you would expect. Funny that a £70k stock C63S is as powerful and fast as a super-sports-GT costing twice the price (they weigh much the same). Aston handles well in V8 form.

 

[Engadine]

If I remember right Aston Martin used their own intake and exhaust, and tuned the sound to remove the low frequency AMG “rumble” and accentuate the higher frequencies, and hence what you described as being more metallic sounding. If I remember right the ECU is completely different; not just the tune, which will adjust the torque delivery but not necessarily the sound.

Yes the intake looks completely different and the exhaust certainly sounds different. The ECU difference is interesting then, and would explain the throttle response/power delivery, which is much more on/off and "sports car" in initial feel. The extra responsiveness also makes it feel less "turbo" in delivery.

 

[f17ant]

Interesting. The final drive ratio is different, in the Aston it is 2.7:1 and in the Mercedes (in C63S form) is 2.82.1. Meanwhile the gear ratios are different also, the Aston gear ratios at a quick glance looking like they are somewhere between the shorter coupe/cabrio ratios in the C63S and the longer ratios in the saloon/estate.

Certainly driving through London, as I did today, it doesn't feel any more muscular than my engine, in fact less so as you would expect. Funny that a £70k stock C63S is as powerful and fast as a super-sports-GT costing twice the price (they weigh much the same). Aston handles well in V8 form.

Iv told loads of ppl about the different gear ratios in the coupe and saloon and everyone doesn’t believe lol

 

[Engadine]

I am grateful, though not surprised, that my question was resolved by the experts here within hours.

Conclusion is:

Different ECU - accounts for sharper throttle response/delivery
Different final drive - accounts for some of the difference in performance feel
Different intake - accounts for very different and much more "induction" type sound
Different exhaust - as above, and sound in general

Amazing what a difference small differences can make, but having had the car for a week now, it's also evident that performance is just superficially different, not better or worse. Which is what you would expect. And still makes a standard C63S (or other applications of this engine in Mercedes) a bargain, performance wise.

Handling, more complicated as its a totally different chassis. Aston have done a brilliant job in creating real GT handling here. Of course it has every reason to be better than a C63S (my car). And it is - but, Mercedes have done a great job in building low speed fun and the sensation of moving around on the car's haunches at low speed. And the Mercedes ride is way better. If there's one or two of you and plenty of space, DB11 is a better car as it should be for more than twice the price, but it just shows what a great run AMG is on. (And with the Brabus 600...it's bye bye DB11!)

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

I am grateful, though not surprised, that my question was resolved by the experts here within hours.

Conclusion is:

Different ECU - accounts for sharper throttle response/delivery
Different final drive - accounts for some of the difference in performance feel
Different intake - accounts for very different and much more "induction" type sound
Different exhaust - as above, and sound in general

Amazing what a difference small differences can make, but having had the car for a week now, it's also evident that performance is just superficially different, not better or worse. Which is what you would expect. And still makes a standard C63S (or other applications of this engine in Mercedes) a bargain, performance wise.

Handling, more complicated as its a totally different chassis. Aston have done a brilliant job in creating real GT handling here. Of course it has every reason to be better than a C63S (my car). And it is - but, Mercedes have done a great job in building low speed fun and the sensation of moving around on the car's haunches at low speed. And the Mercedes ride is way better. If there's one or two of you and plenty of space, DB11 is a better car as it should be for more than twice the price, but it just shows what a great run AMG is on. (And with the Brabus 600...it's bye bye DB11!)

Mercedes have the benefit of being able to put the special bits like the M177 engine into (mostly) very high volume models which dramatically reduces the overall cost to develop and build models, but still results in a special car with broad appeal and relatively accessible pricing.

I wouldn’t say AMGs are a bargain, however it does show how expensive it is to make a safe, reliable, quality low volume car. Aston Martin have to charge much more than AMG and still make a significant loss on each car they sell, even after sharing engines and electronics with Mercedes.

I think the best thing for Aston Martin would be to become a fully integrated part of the Mercedes-Benz Group. That said, perhaps part of the undeniable appeal of Aston Martin is being the most sophisticated under dog which is forever on the brink of extinction!

 

[Engadine]

Mercedes have the benefit of being able to put the special bits like the M177 engine into (mostly) very high volume models which dramatically reduces the overall cost to develop and build models, but still results in a special car with broad appeal and relatively accessible pricing.

I wouldn’t say AMGs are a bargain, however it does show how expensive it is to make a safe, reliable, quality low volume car. Aston Martin have to charge much more than AMG and still make a significant loss on each car they sell, even after sharing engines and electronics with Mercedes.

I think the best thing for Aston Martin would be to become a fully integrated part of the Mercedes-Benz Group. That said, perhaps part of the undeniable appeal of Aston Martin is being the most sophisticated under dog which is forever on the brink of extinction!

All very good points. I was impressed how sorted the DB11 V8 is given budgets. And it looks great. Though I only had the car for a week, not a year to assess its reliability.

Ferrari is proud of winning Engine of the Year multiple times with its TT V8. It is a great engine, but is it much greater than the M177? Not sure. Just like the 6.2 V8 was very close to a great supercar engine. I drove my W204 C63 estate back to back with my manual, V12 Ferrari of a similar era numerous times, and the Mercedes was never embarrassed by the comparison.

Mercedes maybe does not get the credit it deserves for these amazing engines. (And as for the Brabus upgrade to my M177…just wow). But that will all shortly be history in any case

 

[nickjonesn4]

An Aston with a Mercedes engine is a fundamentally a disgrace - notwithstanding the obvious brilliance of the engine of course - I'd imagine both David Brown and Tadek Marek are turning in their graves

 

[ToeKnee]

I believe the vantage also has the 4.0 Mercedes engine.

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

An Aston with a Mercedes engine is a fundamentally a disgrace - notwithstanding the obvious brilliance of the engine of course - I'd imagine both David Brown and Tadek Marek are turning in their graves

Maybe. They’d be spinning if Aston Martin was no more though.

 

[Engadine]

I was giving that some thought. The outgoing Aston V12 was two Ford V6s stuck together. It sounded magnificent but I could never get that fact out of my mind. It just lacked something compared to a Ferrari V12, even if it often sounded better.

And then the six cylinder supercharged DB7 was a development of the Jaguar engine

I agree it’s better for Aston to be here with a Mercedes engine than not at all.

Peter Wheeler at TVR was very keen to get rid of the Rover V8. Credit to him for developing his own, but maybe he should have left well enough alone.

I don’t think Mercedes get enough credit for their high performance engines. The last two V8 AMG engines have been magnificent. And the supercharged 5.4 was great also. BMW and Audi haven’t produced such charismatic V8 engines.

Speaking of engine sharing, the VW group V10 is fantastic in both an R8 and a Huracan.

Soon all this talk will be nostalgia.

 

[Red C220]

I believe the vantage also has the 4.0 Mercedes engine.

It does, Matt Armstrong is rebuilding one. He plugged in his computer to see if he could get the motor started. It wouldn't talk to the car until he told the computer it was an AMG Mercedes, not an Aston Martin.

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[Red C220]

I drove my W204 C63 estate back to back with my manual, V12 Ferrari of a similar era numerous times, and the Mercedes was never embarrassed by the comparison.

Would that happen to be a Tdf Blue 575 by any chance?

 

[Engadine]

Would that happen to be a Tdf Blue 575 by any chance?

Could be!