MB attitude stinks...

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et0609

Active Member
Joined
Jun 18, 2006
Messages
324
Location
Highlands
Car
E350d
I'll cut a long story short. Bought my w203 c200 cdi in July last year. Its now 18 months old. I live in Caithness and my nearest dealer is Inverness, a 200 mile round trip.

Since July i have returned to the dealer 7 times..

1. Rusty wheel nuts (not a big deal)
2. Steering bushes worn out
3. Brake problem
4. Steering problem again
5. Steering problem again
6. Brake problem again
7. Complete steering system replaced

Now, i know its not their fault I live so far from the dealer but in 8 months ive driven 1400 miles at a cost of £200+ just to have faults repaired. The last time my dealer gave me a courtesy car but i had to fill mine up so they could get it to the workshop.

I have been in correspondance with MB in the Netherlands, i think, and they are basically saying...tough s**t. The last letter I received stated "you bought the vehicle and you have to accept there maybe faults".

I think their attitude stinks, so much so, Im seriously thinking of selling the car and defecting to BMW. I have asked them to reimburse me something for the costs, let alone the inconvenience, but they wont budge.

MB have quality issues, its well documented, and I believe 7 faults in 8 months, the last being quite a serious fault is completely unacceptable.

I quite like the car, but god help me when the warranty expires so I think I may have made a mistake buying a MB.
 
I can understand your frustrations and agree that MBs attitude does stink and have had issues with DC UK/Netherlands (which are English staff working based there).

However, if you like the car the IMO it would be a shame to sell and how do you know BMWs attitude will not be the same or worse...?
 
Can I ask what was up with the steering please? Mine feels totally rubbish, almost like the steering bushes have gone.

I know how you feel about going to BMW, and you only need to read a lot of owners reviews on Auto Trader site from Merc owners and they say when they had a BMW the service was much better. I know a couple of people with BMWs and they have never complained.

Look at going Lexus, much more reliable :D
 
Can I ask what was up with the steering please? Mine feels totally rubbish, almost like the steering bushes have gone.

I know how you feel about going to BMW, and you only need to read a lot of owners reviews on Auto Trader site from Merc owners and they say when they had a BMW the service was much better. I know a couple of people with BMWs and they have never complained.

Look at going Lexus, much more reliable :D

its not just much better, its infinitely better. You actually get some customer service going to the bmw dealer. To boot , its cheaper to service there too.

Lexus would also be on my list well before another MB
 
its not just much better, its infinitely better. You actually get some customer service going to the bmw dealer. To boot , its cheaper to service there too.

Lexus would also be on my list well before another MB

It WAS nice knowing you Fuzzer...:D
 
OLDER and SIMPLER model is the way to go.

Your main problem as I see it is your location.:( I love Caithness by the way beautiful country in the summer with those nights it hardly gets dark .:) :) LEXUS would be even further away -Aberdeen or Edinburgh, and they do need servicing and repairing like any car.:eek: The ownership experience of any marque is coloured so much by the backup of your LOCAL dealer, particularly with todays heavy reliance on proprietary electronic system diagnostics. You can see where I'm going with this.----------? The only way to experience HASSLE FREE Mercedes motoring where you are located is to buy an older model that can be serviced/ repaired by a good local mechanic IMHO.
 
I can understand your frustrations and agree that MBs attitude does stink and have had issues with DC UK/Netherlands (which are English staff working based there).

However, if you like the car the IMO it would be a shame to sell and how do you know BMWs attitude will not be the same or worse...?

Well BMW s for one are far better made than mercs so you wouldn't get the problems that merc give...as for dealers ,they are all as bad as each other I think...luck of the draw.From all accounts I think the best customer service and reliability goes to Toyota, Kia, Proton etc...but maybe not in that order !!!!...but who the hell wants to drive one of them....unless of course you are 70 plus and just want a functional car with no problems...is that right John or am I barking up the wrong tree ?.........:D
 
Can I ask what was up with the steering please? Mine feels totally rubbish, almost like the steering bushes have gone.

I know how you feel about going to BMW, and you only need to read a lot of owners reviews on Auto Trader site from Merc owners and they say when they had a BMW the service was much better. I know a couple of people with BMWs and they have never complained.

Look at going Lexus, much more reliable :D

The steering bushes were worn out the first time and the dealer replaced them. The second time they told me they had fixed it but hadnt. In the end, they couldnt pin point the problem so opted to replace the entire steering system. Since then, it has felt better, but I had a Mondeo ST220 before and that felt much firmer. It feels loose to me, even now.

My colleague at work has a 525 sport 54 reg and has owned it for a year. He says he cant fault BMW or the car. I must admit, the more I see it, the better I think it looks that my C200.
 
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The steering bushes were worn out the first time and the dealer replaced them. The second time they told me they had fixed it but hadnt. In the end, they couldnt pin point the problem so opted to replace the entire steering system. Since then, it has felt better, but I had a Mondeo ST220 before and that felt much firmer. It feels loose to me, even now.
That isn't a fault, more a feature of the car. You are comparing a standard "luxury" setup mercedes to a sports setup Mondeo.
Mondeo ST have very direct steering and tight wheel control whereas the C class has much lower geared steering and a lot more rubber in the steering and suspension, for a well insulated feel and ride.

You should have waited and bought a car with the later "direct control" package.
Didn't you notice the difference in feel on the test drive?

So if we take the steering feel out of the faults equation what do we have?
Rusty wheel bolts and braking fault.
I would be interested to heat the braking faults.

This isn't to say MB cars are not without problems but we all need to be careful about what is a fault and what is a feature.
Earlier W203 were known to have steering bush faults but modified bushes vastly reduced the failures.
 
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Ah so as my car is almost 3 yrs old it doesn't have direct control thingy? My steering is extremely light, but I think a bit of that is due to my tyres being almost down to the 2mm markers. I do wonder if the steering bushes are worn though, as it moves a bit too freely.

Also getting what feels like vibration through the floor of the car from the wheel or suspension or steering rack.
 
its not just much better, its infinitely better.

It seems to me that the only reasonable way to compare reliability is to look at objective evidence, the data. Looking at realiability statistics, Mercedes used to come out very well, but already since the 80s often behind prime Japanese brands. In recent years, Mercs seem to have slipped down the rankings. By contrast, the Japanese car manufacturers seem to have managed to maintain their top positions very well. Buy a Toyota, a Honda or indeed a Lexus and you'll get phenomenal reliability. But looking at some stats, I don't see any hard evidence that a BMW is significantly better than a Merc overall. In any event, this should be looked at on a per model basis, not per brand.

Personal experiences are frankly meaningless as hard evidence. Just as much as you could buy a Toyota and end up having lots of problems with it, you could also buy a Renault and never have an issue with it. But the probability that you will have problems with a Renault is far greater than that the Toyota will give you hassle.

So, how likely it is that there will be some problems with a given car is better determined using objective reliability statistics. All the rest is just opinion, often coloured by personal experience and personal likes/dislikes.

But now there is another factor that comes into play, an irrational one: a car's image, its feel and indeed how our cars become extensions of our personality. That is when the heart takes over from the brain. It's when we fall in love with those tin cans.

Somewhere in between is the issue of preferences: I like comfort, silence, a smooth and luxurious drive. Others prefer sports suspension, a harder right, etc.

That is why despite their legendary reliability, we still haven't all swapped over to one or two Japanese brands.

While a Japanese car could offer me the reliability that I so long for (and which my first 2 Mercs possessed in ample quantity), they can't seduce my heart. Before buying my current Merc, I tried a BMW again (before I went over to Merc, I had a 3, then later a 5 series BMW), drove a Lexus for 2 days and even had a go at a Jag.

But none of those give me the Merc experience and so, even though I objectively can no longer believe a Merc was the best choice in terms of reliability, I still got another Mercedes - because we are more than just machines of logic.

You actually get some customer service going to the bmw dealer. To boot , its cheaper to service there too.
As it happens, my personal experience with BMW was far less good than the Merc one. But the best experience I ever had was with the dealership of my first ever car, a Toyota Corolla.

Why am I saying this? Because I don't believe in all these people here with their absolute statements about this brand having better dealerships and that car being more reliable. It all boil downs to personal judgements, coloured by personal experiences. And of course, we might get useful indicators from sharing experiences with one another, especially if there are a lot of independent, similar experiences that are reported on.

Reliability statistics can be found in many places. I would guess there are similar satisfaction statistics when it comes to dealerships. And no doubt some of these have found expression in motoring magazines that have reported on certain trends (for example, there have been a lot of different reports in the last few years from the motoring press on a decline in the build quality of Mercedes cars - that kind of rumour is based on data illustrating this fact).

And, nothing is static, panta rei. What is true for a certain model today might not apply to others, and your experience with dealerships today might be different in the future.

Lexus would also be on my list well before another MB
I can't but be impressed by the Lexus' reliability: statistics offering hard proof of this are aplenty. But it could not seduce my heart in the same way that the Merc could, so there you are, it ended up being another Merc for me because I want a car that gives me pleasure as well as being a tool.

I personally don't like the look, the style of the contemporary BMWs anymore. But then again, I also don't like the sporty versions of Mercs, with their metal interiours etc.

I would be cautious about absolute statements about these things, it's not as black and white as some have portrayed it.

The truth is that when it comes to cars, taste and personal preference play a major role not just in our choices, but even in our perceptions. Purely rationally, that is madness, but it's the way it is with us humans :D
 
i take on board your thoughts .

However , ive owned 9 mercedes and travelled about half a million miles+ in 10 years in them im in quite a good positon to offer a fairly balanced oppinion on them.
 
YThe only way to experience HASSLE FREE Mercedes motoring where you are located is to buy an older model that can be serviced/ repaired by a good local mechanic IMHO.

I think this advice goes for anything with a lot of gizmos and gadgets once you get significantly north of Perth / north east of Aberdeen!
 
I think this advice goes for anything with a lot of gizmos and gadgets once you get significantly north of Perth / north east of Aberdeen!

there is a mercedes dealer in inverness you know . Used to be camperdown vehicles and is now part of the John R Weir group.:D
 
However , ive owned 9 mercedes and travelled about half a million miles+ in 10 years in them im in quite a good positon to offer a fairly balanced oppinion on them.

Sorry, but this goes back to the personal experience issue. In those 10+ years, there were millions of Mercs driven around probably billions of miles worldwide.

You are absolutely qualified to report on your personal experiences with your Mercs - in the same way that I can report on my experiences with my cars.

I have been driving Mercs for 10 years as well, now having my 4th.

We can both freely discuss our experiences. But neither of those is statistically relevant in objective terms.

That does not mean that it is not useful to hear other people's views. We might learn from them, support one another, etc. But statistically meaningful it ain't. :D
 
Sorry, but this goes back to the personal experience issue. In those 10+ years, there were millions of Mercs driven around probably billions of miles worldwide.

You are absolutely qualified to report on your personal experiences with your Mercs - in the same way that I can report on my experiences with my cars.

I have been driving Mercs for 10 years as well, now having my 4th.

We can both freely discuss our experiences. But neither of those is statistically relevant in objective terms.

That does not mean that it is not useful to hear other people's views. We might learn from them, support one another, etc. But statistically meaningful it ain't. :D

:D
 
One problem with the statistics is that the difference between a car at the top of the satisfaction ratings and one at the bottom is not that great.

Way back in the 1970s, when the J D Power survey became very big in the USA, there were some good cars and some very bad cars. Here in Europe we didn't have J D Power, but the difference between the best and the worst cars was huge here too. Think of the Austin Allegro, the Morris Marina, the Triumph TR7, the Lada and rusty, rear engined Skodas. Need I say more?

Now, the distinction between the best and worst cars is that the best manage over 90% customer satisfaction and the worst manage a still respectable 75%. There were cars that managed only around 50% satisfaction in the 1970s, but not any more. Now there really isn't so much difference between the best cars and the worst.

So when we are talking about cars in the very lowest reaches of the J D Power satisfaction table, we should realise that a whopping three quarters of their buyers are still very happy with them.

That is why so many individuals are happy with their Mercedes Benz, despite some Mercedes models being fairly low in the table. Probably more than 80% of Mercedes buyers are happy, despite all of them expecting 100% perfection. Meanwhile, the Skoda Octavia and Fabia get 95% customer satisfaction, possibly at least partly because their buyers expect much less than perfection and get more than they hoped for.

So the headline statistics don't tell the whole story. The story that does not get told is just how good nearly all cars are today. But just because cars are better today doesn't stop the occasional "Friday car" slipping through quality control.

The original poster in this thread seems to have such a car. What makes it worse is that the servicing dealer seems unwilling to get to grips with the problems and sort them out. What makes it even worse again is that MB in the Netherlands is arguing with the owner, rather than supporting him and making sure he is happy.

I am not surprised that he is thinking of defecting to BMW. But there is still an opportunity for MB to recover the situation and keep him on board.

Will they take that opportunity? That is the $64,000 question.
 
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It seems to me that the only reasonable way to compare reliability is to look at objective evidence, the data. Looking at realiability statistics, Mercedes used to come out very well, but already since the 80s often behind prime Japanese brands. In recent years, Mercs seem to have slipped down the rankings. By contrast, the Japanese car manufacturers seem to have managed to maintain their top positions very well. Buy a Toyota, a Honda or indeed a Lexus and you'll get phenomenal reliability. But looking at some stats, I don't see any hard evidence that a BMW is significantly better than a Merc overall. In any event, this should be looked at on a per model basis, not per brand.

Personal experiences are frankly meaningless as hard evidence. Just as much as you could buy a Toyota and end up having lots of problems with it, you could also buy a Renault and never have an issue with it. But the probability that you will have problems with a Renault is far greater than that the Toyota will give you hassle.

So, how likely it is that there will be some problems with a given car is better determined using objective reliability statistics. All the rest is just opinion, often coloured by personal experience and personal likes/dislikes.

But now there is another factor that comes into play, an irrational one: a car's image, its feel and indeed how our cars become extensions of our personality. That is when the heart takes over from the brain. It's when we fall in love with those tin cans.

Somewhere in between is the issue of preferences: I like comfort, silence, a smooth and luxurious drive. Others prefer sports suspension, a harder right, etc.

That is why despite their legendary reliability, we still haven't all swapped over to one or two Japanese brands.

While a Japanese car could offer me the reliability that I so long for (and which my first 2 Mercs possessed in ample quantity), they can't seduce my heart. Before buying my current Merc, I tried a BMW again (before I went over to Merc, I had a 3, then later a 5 series BMW), drove a Lexus for 2 days and even had a go at a Jag.

But none of those give me the Merc experience and so, even though I objectively can no longer believe a Merc was the best choice in terms of reliability, I still got another Mercedes - because we are more than just machines of logic.

As it happens, my personal experience with BMW was far less good than the Merc one. But the best experience I ever had was with the dealership of my first ever car, a Toyota Corolla.

Why am I saying this? Because I don't believe in all these people here with their absolute statements about this brand having better dealerships and that car being more reliable. It all boil downs to personal judgements, coloured by personal experiences. And of course, we might get useful indicators from sharing experiences with one another, especially if there are a lot of independent, similar experiences that are reported on.

Reliability statistics can be found in many places. I would guess there are similar satisfaction statistics when it comes to dealerships. And no doubt some of these have found expression in motoring magazines that have reported on certain trends (for example, there have been a lot of different reports in the last few years from the motoring press on a decline in the build quality of Mercedes cars - that kind of rumour is based on data illustrating this fact).

And, nothing is static, panta rei. What is true for a certain model today might not apply to others, and your experience with dealerships today might be different in the future.

I can't but be impressed by the Lexus' reliability: statistics offering hard proof of this are aplenty. But it could not seduce my heart in the same way that the Merc could, so there you are, it ended up being another Merc for me because I want a car that gives me pleasure as well as being a tool.

I personally don't like the look, the style of the contemporary BMWs anymore. But then again, I also don't like the sporty versions of Mercs, with their metal interiours etc.

I would be cautious about absolute statements about these things, it's not as black and white as some have portrayed it.

The truth is that when it comes to cars, taste and personal preference play a major role not just in our choices, but even in our perceptions. Purely rationally, that is madness, but it's the way it is with us humans :D


I always disagreed with this governments view on care in the community........:eek:
 
Now, the distinction between the best and worst cars is that the best manage over 90% customer satisfaction and the worst manage a still respectable 75%.

But I wasn't thinking of statistics that capture subjective opinion, rather about the statistics that keep track of how many defects and of what kind and severity a given model car produces over a given period of time. That is an objective assessment of reliability as opposed to people's perceptions or expectations.

Customer satisfaction stats are interesting nevertheless, and probably quite important to the manufacturers since they are relevant with regard to the brand's all important image.

So the headline statistics don't tell the whole story. The story that does not get told is just how good nearly all cars are today.
This is true in one sense, in that modern cars are certainly more secure, safer, have more gadgets, etc. On the other hand, the much higher complexity of a modern car means that there are many more things that can go wrong.

But just because cars are better today doesn't stop the occasional "Friday car" slipping through quality control.
Which is exactly why a body of statistically relevant data about a model's reliability is a far better source of information than personal stories reporting on one of these Friday cars.

The original poster in this thread seems to have such a car. What makes it worse is that the servicing dealer seems unwilling to get to grips with the problems and sort them out. What makes it even worse again is that MB in the Netherlands is arguing with the owner, rather than supporting him and making sure he is happy.
I can only agree with that, but it would be bad science to draw any general conclusions about car quality, dealer behaviour, etc from a single case. As the number of reports on any of these properties increases, a pattern might start to emerge, but it takes quite a large amount of well balanced data before it becomes statistically relevant.
 
But I wasn't thinking of statistics that capture subjective opinion, rather about the statistics that keep track of how many defects and of what kind and severity a given model car produces over a given period of time. That is an objective assessment of reliability as opposed to people's perceptions or expectations.

Customer satisfaction stats are interesting nevertheless, and probably quite important to the manufacturers since they are relevant with regard to the brand's all important image.

This is true in one sense, in that modern cars are certainly more secure, safer, have more gadgets, etc. On the other hand, the much higher complexity of a modern car means that there are many more things that can go wrong.

Which is exactly why a body of statistically relevant data about a model's reliability is a far better source of information than personal stories reporting on one of these Friday cars.

I can only agree with that, but it would be bad science to draw any general conclusions about car quality, dealer behaviour, etc from a single case. As the number of reports on any of these properties increases, a pattern might start to emerge, but it takes quite a large amount of well balanced data before it becomes statistically relevant.
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...... data, science, statitistics, ...are you sure you are on the right forum dude ? ........yawn.........:confused:
 

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