MB to stop SBC?

[jgevers]

I just heard in Germany that MB is to stop the SBC system on the E class and CLS because of too many failures. The CLS will get the new S class braking system next June.

Anyone know if this is correct?

Cheers

Job

 

[Brett]

It's been commented on in the press. I asked in my dealership earlier today and they "thought it likely" that SBC would be discontinued due to the number of recalls they've had associated with it.

 

[IanA2]

It's worth noting they are keeping it on S Classes and variants thereof. What does that say I wonder?

 

[RichardM]

Yes MB have stated the revised W211 (E Class) in 2006 will drop SBC. The SL will continue to use it as it would be too expensive to redesign the braking system on that model.

 

[gary350]

I am sure I have read somewhwere there is a 2 million car recall going on at the moment and the assisted brake system is being replaced on all current cars that have it.

Its 1.3 million and involves other things
http://www.benzworld.org/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=1205266&posts=1

gary

 

[glojo]

It's worth noting they are keeping it on S Classes and variants thereof. What does that say I wonder?

I heard many, many months ago it was being stopped but solely because of cost!

What are all these failures folks refer to?

Why does the SLR have it?

an excellent system that is well worth having.

John

 

[RichardM]

It seems to be more of a perception issue.

According to a Mercedes-Benz UK source quoted by What Car Magazine, the problem is not so much with SBC itself as with customer perception of the system. “SBC is as good as our other braking systems, and sometimes better, but we cannot get the doubts out of customers' heads,” the source told What Car.

Call us a bunch of doubting Thomases, but having invested so heavily in SBC, we reckon M-B would ride out customer doubts unless there were also significant technical difficulties. In any case, the partial withdrawal of SBC certainly leaves the company in an awkward position. And with the new SBC-equipped S-Class likely to be in production for at least five years, those Mercedes PR flunkies will have their work cut out explaining to customers why SBC is a bad idea for the E-Class, but still the best thing ever for the S-Class.

 

[C240Sport97]

I agree. It's MB trying to increase margins by reducing costs.

I heard many, many months ago it was being stopped but solely because of cost!

What are all these failures folks refer to?

Why does the SLR have it?

an excellent system that is well worth having.

John

 

[jgevers]

I think that the system itself is very good. The software that runs it is a different matter though. It seems like the electronic hardware was 'under specced' in the E class, giving various electronic parts failures. The software seems to in a TVResk customer driven development, which will probably too expensive for the initial profitability in the car.

The more expensive (read more profitable) cars can still pay for the constant development and invariably recalls will not include as many cars.

 

[IanA2]

The more expensive (read more profitable) cars can still pay for the constant development and invariably recalls will not include as many cars.

Add to that they still take a little more care in the manufacture of the upscale models and you have it!!

Am I right in thinking all the S classes are still made in Germany??

 

[glojo]

Add to that they still take a little more care in the manufacture of the upscale models and you have it!!

Am I right in thinking all the S classes are still made in Germany??

I think this thread would be better suited to the 'Theorist at Work' thread.

You will never convince the doubters.

The US is a huge importer of the 211, but for a number of years there has been a problem with the value of the euro when compared to the dollar. To help keep the price of this popular car to an acceptable level, the US market was not offered some of the 'standard' specifications that the European vehicles had.

SBC is an expensive, complex system, the US vehicles have NEVER had the full system! The latest European 211 now has the reduced version (from mid 2004)

We often hear of accountants controlling purse strings and unfortunately this still applies. Increase the price, or reduce the spec??

The millions of recalls is a far more hysterical headline. Toyota lead the recall stakes, but never let the truth get in the way of a good story. We all think the Japanese build bullet proof vehicles, no one ever suggests they actually receive recall notifications!!

John

 

[pint6x]

Which E class cars had SBC ? did the previous (96-02) E-class have it ?

What does SBC do and which E's did it cause problems for ?

 

[frog1520]

What does SBC do thats different to the other systems?

 

[glojo]

What does SBC do thats different to the other systems?

Here is a small link SBC

pint6x
In answer to your question the 211 only

Regards,
John

 

[Brett]

John,

I agree, as you know I had an 03 W211 Estate and one of my first posts after first driving it was "Wow, what have they done to the brakes" or words to that effect. I was very impressed with the system, even though I was subjected to a recall on the system in the six months I owned it. That said, I'd much rather they did recall a potential problem with brakes!

Cheers,
Brett

 

[jeremytaylor]

Add to that they still take a little more care in the manufacture of the upscale models and you have it!!

Am I right in thinking all the S classes are still made in Germany??

Yes, at Sindelfingen, like the E, CLS and some Cs, albeit on different lines.

 

[glojo]

I'm not happy about the R-class being built in the US.

I totally understand the reasons behind it, but it just doesn't seem right?

Has the E-class 4Matic manufacturing moved from Austria?

John

 

[glojo]

I am sure I have read somewhwere there is a 2 million car recall going on at the moment and the assisted brake system is being replaced on all current cars that have it.

Its 1.3 million and involves other things

Strange how there is all this hype about SBC, and we are continually told just how reliable Toyota\Lexus are..

I am always interested to read about problems with SBC as my wife drives a vehicle fitted with this system.

What I continually find though is mostly rumour and gossip but I do uncover the odd snippet that I was not aware of and I have just found this on a US site:

From Consumer Reports Car recalls.

'97 Lexus ES300, Toyota Avalon, and Toyota Camry

In extreme cold, icing could disable brakes' power assist. Brakes would then require more distance and much greater pedal pressure to stop car.

Models: 18,746 cars made 7/96-2/97 and originally sold or currently registered in Alaska, Colo., Idaho, Ill., Iowa, Kan., Me., Mich., Minn., Mont., Neb., Nev., N.H., N.Y., N.D., S.D., Vt., Wisc., and Wyo.

What to do: Have dealer install redesigned brake vacuum hose. Owners of cars in other states who drive in extremely cold weather should also ask dealer for redesigned hose.

These are 'old' cars but I cannot recall reading anything about this problem?

Here on the English Riviera we do not have cold weather so we're alright and I suppose there just might be different hose pipes used in North America?

Regards
John

 

[Dieselman]

Strange how there is all this hype about SBC, and we are continually told just how reliable Toyota\Lexus are..

I am always interested to read about problems with SBC as my wife drives a vehicle fitted with this system.

What I continually find though is mostly rumour and gossip but I do uncover the odd snippet that I was not aware of and I have just found this on a US site:

From Consumer Reports Car recalls.

'97 Lexus ES300, Toyota Avalon, and Toyota Camry

In extreme cold, icing could disable brakes' power assist. Brakes would then require more distance and much greater pedal pressure to stop car.

Models: 18,746 cars made 7/96-2/97 and originally sold or currently registered in Alaska, Colo., Idaho, Ill., Iowa, Kan., Me., Mich., Minn., Mont., Neb., Nev., N.H., N.Y., N.D., S.D., Vt., Wisc., and Wyo.

What to do: Have dealer install redesigned brake vacuum hose. Owners of cars in other states who drive in extremely cold weather should also ask dealer for redesigned hose.

These are 'old' cars but I cannot recall reading anything about this problem?

Here on the English Riviera we do not have cold weather so we're alright and I suppose there just might be different hose pipes used in North America?

Regards
John

This wouldn't apply because SBC cars don't have a vaccum servo, hence the iceing issue is easily fixed by re-routing the vacuum pipe to draw warmer air. At least you can't be left with sudden loss of efficiency, just a gradual loss of assistance as the vacuum is depleted.
The fact that Toyota had a problem in a particular market doesn't make MBs case any better.

In a previous reply there is comment of SBC being removed to save money. Coupled with the potential for severe braking, the cost of all the recalls and "updates", which are still going on behind closed workshop doors, the overall cost must be enormous.

A working SBC system is a brilliant idea but the reality is it has been a commercial disaster.
It's a bit like corrosion issues, it doesn't make commercial sense to save say £50 painting a car then to spend £6000 repairing corrosion, the same goes for SBC.
I doubt an SBC system costs MB anymore at manufacture than a traditional hydraulic, twin servo, ABS braking system does anyway.

As MB have decided to forsake a Billion or so Euro to get quality back on track, I doubt they would be bothered about a small additional cost, especially if they could actively charge a premium for it due to it being so good.

Whether a car was fitted with SBC wouldn't sway my decision either way, but it has obviously swayed the powers at MB.

 

[glojo]

This wouldn't apply because SBC cars don't have a vaccum servo, .

I understand what your saying and I certainly did not want to imply that the 211 had a vacuum servo. Regarding how the frozen pipes would effect the braking is pure speculation, it was serious enough for Toyota to issue recalls and NO car manufacturer does this by choice.

I doubt an SBC system costs MB anymore at manufacture than a traditional hydraulic, twin servo, ABS braking system does anyway..

Surely material costs are insignificant, by that I mean if you were to add up the material costs of say my vehicle and then compare that to an S-class.. the actual material costs would be similar? However the research and development costs are the real crippler and this excellent braking system is still going to be used by the ultimate Mercedes-Benz... the SLR. Until they remove it from ALL models and compensate owners then I for one will need more convincing.

Whether a car was fitted with SBC wouldn't sway my decision either way, but it has obviously swayed the powers at MB.

If you were offered a 211 would you refuse to drive it because it had the SBC braking system?

I have read reports about just how stable the A-class was before the infamous 'Elk' test and that the modified vehicle was not as good as the older version! What is your opinion on that issue?

I like the comment

all the recalls and "updates", which are still going on behind closed workshop doors, the overall cost must be enormous..

It certainly makes it sound secretive and yes it must be expensive, but again nowhere near as expensive as the Toyota\Lexus recalls. I am NOT refering just to the brake recall. Toyota are by far the winner in the recall lists but their public relations folks do an excellent PR job and keep the recalls out of the press. Daimler Chrysler clearly need to learn these lessons as they loosing the PR war.

Thanks to this forum I have recently learnt about the major debacle of the BMW engines!!! How much did that cost, and if the engine blew at high speed what would the effects have been to the power steering AND brakes? No doubt this issue will also be played down but that terrible SBC system is a total disaster????

Again I repeat I have not got my head in the sand, I merely want FACTS about genuine failures of this braking system.

I have asked you these questions because I value and respect your input, please do not think I am trying to be clever (I am nowhere near intelligent enough to attempt it)

Take care and happy new year,
John