Mercedes-Benz Says Auf Wiedersehen To V12 Engines

st4

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This is sad. V12 engines are the pinnicle of a range. A blown 8 imho just isn't as special.

However given that sales of SL55 vs SL600 (both comparible in price) hugely favour the V8 its not a massive suprise. S500's also hugely outsell S600's (price plays a role) but the 500's performace is more than ample (actually a 320cdi's is) so a V12 engine isn't really needed. However I still see its a shame as a blown 8 IMHO is a step backwards. A V12 with ZAS that can run on 4, 6, and 8 cylinders dependent on engine load would be really interesting.
 

MBManInKen

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Sad indeed, but a sign of the times no doubt. Being an optimist, I'd think that they will be back at some point in the future though. :)
 

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Is there really any truth to this? Surely for as long as there's 12 cylinder Astons, BMWs and Bentleys they'll continue to make the same for the ultra-refined end of the market, and don't forget the Zonda...
 

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didn't AMG once say, they were not making any normally aspirated engines anymore?


I also wonder why, in this day and age, they don't make a small 2ltr V8 with a turbo or 2. You would get sound, and possibly the power of a larger V8, with all the advantages of a lesser car engine too.

Or am I wrong.


no doubt Dieselman will get in on that poser?
 

timskemp

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I also wonder why, in this day and age, they don't make a small 2ltr V8 with a turbo or 2. You would get sound, and possibly the power of a larger V8, with all the advantages of a lesser car engine too.


I'd think that the cost, weight and complexity will come into it in a big way. A lot of MB engines so far have been related - same castings for blocks / heads will make big range of engines and power outputs - what would be the economies of scale of a 2.0 V8 unless you were going to have a 1.5V6 and a 1.0 4 cylinder to go with it?

I recall too that there's something efficient about 500-600cc per cylinder. Add to that the striving to lower average CO2 (for some unknown reason) then we get a demand for higher efficiency.

I think the current 350 CGI engine is showing the way forwards with direct injection and high RPM - look at the numbers it produces in the CLS and the SLK. There could be a 2.4 four, a 4.7 8 and a 7.0 12 coming from that kind of basis, some with light turbo to give low end torque. And maybe a 3 cylinder would help the eco side...
 

st4

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Sad indeed, but a sign of the times no doubt. Being an optimist, I'd think that they will be back at some point in the future though. :)

Exactly, and if there is any truth in the article not much demand for V12s. Remember the V12 engine in S classes can be fitted in SLs, CL's and the saloon car (in LWB true to MB form).

The turbo V8 can be fitted to all the cars listed above, + E classes (all of the range) + SLKs, C classes (AMG), and the MLs, GL + R class.

I therefore suspect engine sharing has an awful lot to do with it and the engine will be offered in a variety of different tunes (think software) to suit the different characteristics of the cars mentioned above. Its much cheaper to develop and manufacturer one engine and various engine maps, than make different engines for different cars. Cost will have a lot do with it, and thats a sign of the times. The C02 aspect less so, as a turbo V8 is well above EU targets and the sales relative to 220cdis are miniscule.
 

timskemp

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Exactly, and if there is any truth in the article not much demand for V12s. Remember the V12 engine in S classes can be fitted in SLs, CL's and the saloon car (in LWB true to MB form).


With a little bit of Brabus help the V12 will fit in the E, CLS and C class. It's not that big.
 

st4

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With a little bit of Brabus help the V12 will fit in the E, CLS and C class. It's not that big.

Its still very nose heavy however.

Completely aside and unrelated to this thread I know BMW will go the turbo route with the M cars. This IIRC is a shame, those that have had a BMW on here, will recall how nice the N/A engines were on full song. Why not make the cars lighter instead, and that doesn;t just mean some carbon fibre on the dash.
 

MBManInKen

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Exactly, and if there is any truth in the article not much demand for V12s.

Yes, that sounds about right, they tend to be rare and as we've discussed often before, there are quite a few reasons to prefer the 500 over the 600 even if fuel consumption is not your major hangup.

Shame I can't have my midlife crisis by getting a V12 though :D.
 

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Shame I can't have my midlife crisis by getting a V12 though :D.

I'm sure there'll still be plenty around, personally I doubt MB will pull out of the V12 market first, I seem to remember reading that they are the largest manufacturer of V12 car engines in the world.
 

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Read this review:: I sincerely hope they continue making V12s all the way to the point I can afford one.

SL65 at drag strip
 

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Its still very nose heavy however.

Completely aside and unrelated to this thread I know BMW will go the turbo route with the M cars. This IIRC is a shame, those that have had a BMW on here, will recall how nice the N/A engines were on full song. Why not make the cars lighter instead, and that doesn;t just mean some carbon fibre on the dash.

well, I can think of two ranges of BMW's that only feature turbo'd engine lineups:

X6: 3l turbo I6 diesel, 3l twin turbo I6 diesel, 3l twin turbo I6 petrol and 4.4l twin turbo V8 Petrol

new 7 series: 3l turbo I6 diesel (730d), 3l twin turbo I6 petrol (740i) and 4.4l twin turbo V8 petrol (750i)

I can see BMW going turbo's with their M series too, but then, they know what the M series means so hopefully they'll keep the NA characteristics as much as possible.
 

st4

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well, I can think of two ranges of BMW's that only feature turbo'd engine lineups:

X6: 3l turbo I6 diesel, 3l twin turbo I6 diesel, 3l twin turbo I6 petrol and 4.4l twin turbo V8 Petrol

new 7 series: 3l turbo I6 diesel (730d), 3l twin turbo I6 petrol (740i) and 4.4l twin turbo V8 petrol (750i)

I can see BMW going turbo's with their M series too, but then, they know what the M series means so hopefully they'll keep the NA characteristics as much as possible.

You're bang on right and I'd have none of these cars - I observed this with the X6 and noticed the 7 had no n/a engines. BMW and turbos. They just don't get it...

A modern N/A engine driven sensibly can acheive decent MPG. I even coxed 27mpg out of a V8 4.4i X5. Not bad for a heavy, automatic AWD car. And I drove from Helensburgh into Edinburgth city center. 40miles of A and B road, and 30 or so of mway, then some stop start. Okay I didn't drive it like a BMW is normally driven....but a turbo'd 6 petrol wouldn't have been much better, and I wasn't dawdling either.

BMW made a modular engine design with the E60 M5. It could be cut down for a 4 litre V8 (as they did) for the M3. Why not make a 3 litre V6 with it with 300bhp. Then tie it to a properly lightened car.
 

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MB are soon to pull the plug on the full range of V formation big diesel engines, thats the V6, V8, V12, and I think they've done a V16 somewhere in the distant past, as they are currently working on a range of in line six's to be used in worldwide DC truck/bus products, as well as being sold into maritime, construction and farm machinery production.
They will be able to produce higher torque figures than the V engines, apparently a fault of this formation, especially the V6.

But going back to the lack of a V12, a german farm machinery producer dropped a MB V12 version of its harvester, and came up with a more economical tandem V6 version, where both engines only came onto play when full power was required, food for thought :D
 
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I wonder if there are politics involved. MB do the sustainable, environmentally responsible thing by removing some very naughty, high emmision gas guzzling big displacement engines and in return get some attractive financial concessions that far outweigh the hardship of not selling V12s.
 

st4

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I wonder if there are politics involved. MB do the sustainable, environmentally responsible thing by removing some very naughty, high emmision gas guzzling big displacement engines and in return get some attractive financial concessions that far outweigh the hardship of not selling V12s.

To an extent but a blown V8 is hardly an low emmision miserly engine. I suspect its about getting the new flagship engine into more cars making greater economies of scale.
 

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