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Mercedes-Benz refuses to fix crabbing problem on GLC and GLC Coupe | Motoring News | Honest John
Mercedes-Benz refuses to fix crabbing problem on GLC and GLC Coupe | Motoring News | Honest John
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There's a TIPS document dated 22/12/16 number GI40.10-P-065354
Noise on front axle when cornering or maneuvering -
with 2 sound recordings attached.
Cause: Summer tires in combination with low outside temperatures.
Remedy: Change to winter tires (service not covered by W&G).
Richard
then it clearly must have something to do with the tyres and not the geometry. Yes, or have I missed something?
Guys, Mercedes, have a policy that if they cannot repair a car to the owners satisfaction after three visits, they have to replace it with a new one, (a chap at work had a door "squeaking" problem with a "C" class, not resolved, he got a new one form them), reading all these's post's, tho it seems like you wouldn't opt for another GLC
Guys, Mercedes, have a policy that if they cannot repair a car to the owners satisfaction after three visits, they have to replace it with a new one, (a chap at work had a door "squeaking" problem with a "C" class, not resolved, he got a new one form them), reading all these's post's, tho it seems like you wouldn't opt for another GLC
But on a serious note before I pay for my new car should I get in writing from MB confirmation that if the problem -which they say is 'Normal'
Something being "normal" is not always something being "correct" or indeed "acceptable".
It cannot be "normal" if, not all of these cars exhibit the behaviour. That would say that that if a car does not exhibit the behaviour, it is "abnormal".
I wouldn't worry. Either cancel the order (and get a Macan) or proceed - if your car does it, give the dealer plenty of opportunities to sort it to your satisfaction, and if they can't reject it. It will be very difficult to get them to put something in writing.
Or cancel it and get an ML63/GLE63
Don't take this the wrong way, but is this fact, or conjecture based upon an absence of internet posts complaining about it? The reason I ask is that in Germany (for example) pretty much everyone will be on winter tyres at this time of year so, bearing in mind that is MBUK's "fix", you're probably unlikely to find German owners complaining. I'm not saying that categorically there isn't a difference in performance between LHD and RHD cars on the platform in question, but likewise I'm not certain that an absence of public comment from the LHD owners is confirmation that there is.The key message we have learnt is that only Right-Hand drive GLC's suffer from this inherent juddering and bouncing fault. Left-Hand drive vehicles in Europe / Germany / North America drive perfectly well, although may suffer minor and acceptable slipping, which is totally different to what we are experiencing in our Right-Hand drive GLC's.!
Again, don't take this the wrong way, but imo you're looking at this from the wrong perspective and whether that size of tyre on a GL does or doesn't give the same effect is an irrelevance. If my deduction is correct that the design team deemed it to be an acceptable compromise in order to meet some other design intent, then arguing that another model / make / etc. doesn't do it is easily batted off by MB who will just say "Different vehicle, different design criteria, tough", or words to that effect.Secondly I've got the same diameter and make model of tyres I had on my GL, and many other cars.
Another user, rajpatel posted that:will scrub at driving speed going round a corner and has on occasion skipped across the road into oncoming traffic! I now judge when to actually pull out of a junction as I have to allow for the car not turning properly!
andthe car seems to display dangerous characteristic of driving itself into path of oncoming traffic
Arguing that this is unacceptable behaviour of the vehicle is, imo, much more likely to be successful than arguments about slip and judder in low-speed manoeuvring.it does not go in the direction of the steering.
Don't take this the wrong way, but is this fact, or conjecture based upon an absence of internet posts complaining about it? The reason I ask is that in Germany (for example) pretty much everyone will be on winter tyres at this time of year so, bearing in mind that is MBUK's "fix", you're probably unlikely to find German owners complaining. I'm not saying that categorically there isn't a difference in performance between LHD and RHD cars on the platform in question, but likewise I'm not certain that an absence of public comment from the LHD owners is confirmation that there is.
Having given this a good deal of thought (from the perspective of an Engineer) there are three possible reasons for the trait that UK owners are reporting:The TIPS document that Richard referenced in his post above would suggest (unless it was issued without any investigation being carried out, which is unlikely) that the third option can be ruled out. The second option is a possibility, but unlikely, so that leaves the design intent question.Again, don't take this the wrong way, but imo you're looking at this from the wrong perspective and whether that size of tyre on a GL does or doesn't give the same effect is an irrelevance. If my deduction is correct that the design team deemed it to be an acceptable compromise in order to meet some other design intent, then arguing that another model / make / etc. doesn't do it is easily batted off by MB who will just say "Different vehicle, different design criteria, tough", or words to that effect.
- It was viewed by the design team as an acceptable compromise in order to meet some other, unknown to us, design intent
- Inadequate testing that failed to surface the trait
- There is a problem in build or manufacture that means that the vehicle is not performing in the way the design team intended
Instead, I think you need to focus your arguments on quantifiable and safety matters. I believe it was Tony Mac who mentioned significant and premature shoulder wear on the front tyres and others have indicated that they are experiencing it too? I think that is a good line of attack, although it is still to an extent subjective.
A potentially better line of attack (again, imo) is that posted by a couple of users on the AMG Private Lounge where they are saying that in certain normal driving scenarios (i.e. not slow speed manoeuvring) the car does not respond to steering input in the expected way. User Richtw posted that his C43 S205:Another user, rajpatel posted that:andArguing that this is unacceptable behaviour of the vehicle is, imo, much more likely to be successful than arguments about slip and judder in low-speed manoeuvring.
Mercedes-Benz designers are not idiots, so there will be a reason why they chose to make the compromises that they did with the MRA 4WD platform steering geometry and drivetrain. Whether those compromises were right or wrong is another matter of course, and they don't have a monopoly on being right either (remember the Moose Test on the original A-Class?).
The first hurdle to overcome is to get MB to accept that the design compromise they chose leads to an unacceptable result in vehicle driving performance. A safety argument is, imo, the strongest chance you have of doing that. From MB's perspective other arguments are (no pun intended) largely noise.
Not just Germany, there are many more countries including the USA. Again not everyone will be on winter tyres. Take today temperatures are well above 7 degrees and the car is consistently and persistently doing this.Don't take this the wrong way, but is this fact, or conjecture based upon an absence of internet posts complaining about it? The reason I ask is that in Germany (for example) pretty much everyone will be on winter tyres at this time of year so, bearing in mind that is MBUK's "fix", you're probably unlikely to find German owners complaining. I'm not saying that categorically there isn't a difference in performance between LHD and RHD cars on the platform in question, but likewise I'm not certain that an absence of public comment from the LHD owners is confirmation that there is.
You aren't the only engineer on here Actually my pre-fix is ing and also got a Drs if you really want to go down that route.Having given this a good deal of thought (from the perspective of an Engineer) there are three possible reasons for the trait that UK owners are reporting:The TIPS document that Richard referenced in his post above would suggest (unless it was issued without any investigation being carried out, which is unlikely) that the third option can be ruled out. The second option is a possibility, but unlikely, so that leaves the design intent question.
- It was viewed by the design team as an acceptable compromise in order to meet some other, unknown to us, design intent
- Inadequate testing that failed to surface the trait
- There is a problem in build or manufacture that means that the vehicle is not performing in the way the design team intended
It all depends on the context in which this comment was and is being made. And there are two;Again, don't take this the wrong way, but imo you're looking at this from the wrong perspective and whether that size of tyre on a GL does or doesn't give the same effect is an irrelevance.
Agreed in principle, however one can argue that there are reasonable expectations of what a car, and especially one with a reputation like Mercedes for comfort and refinement, and even more so with prior Mercedes experience, can expect in the characteristic of a car. Jumping and juddering is not something that comes to mind of most people in regards to a Mercedes Benz.If my deduction is correct that the design team deemed it to be an acceptable compromise in order to meet some other design intent, then arguing that another model / make / etc. doesn't do it is easily batted off by MB who will just say "Different vehicle, different design criteria, tough", or words to that effect.
Agreed on both account; it is an important point, although I think safety is going to be incredibly difficult to proof. Personally I don't feel not safe in the car at all. I don't have enough miles to conclusive demonstrate excessive wear. But that may come later for round twoInstead, I think you need to focus your arguments on quantifiable and safety matters. I believe it was Tony Mac who mentioned significant and premature shoulder wear on the front tyres and others have indicated that they are experiencing it too? I think that is a good line of attack, although it is still to an extent subjective.
Yes it feels like the car is going straight, but in my experience it isn't really. Well not in my case.A potentially better line of attack (again, imo) is that posted by a couple of users on the AMG Private Lounge where they are saying that in certain normal driving scenarios (i.e. not slow speed manoeuvring) the car does not respond to steering input in the expected way. User Richtw posted that his C43 S205:Another user, rajpatel posted that:andArguing that this is unacceptable behaviour of the vehicle is, imo, much more likely to be successful than arguments about slip and judder in low-speed manoeuvring.
And they have prior history in messing up right hand drive conversions as well There was a big issue with the S Class.Mercedes-Benz designers are not idiots, so there will be a reason why they chose to make the compromises that they did with the MRA 4WD platform steering geometry and drivetrain. Whether those compromises were right or wrong is another matter of course, and they don't have a monopoly on being right either (remember the Moose Test on the original A-Class?).
Fully agreedThe first hurdle to overcome is to get MB to accept that the design compromise they chose leads to an unacceptable result in vehicle driving performance.
And in my personal case one I can't stand behind, I honestly don't feel unsafe in this vehicle. Just totally embarrassed and annoyed at the lack of refinement which do not fit with reasonable expectations, which display characteristics that are not being highlighted by sales staff nor their brochures.A safety argument is, imo, the strongest chance you have of doing that. From MB's perspective other arguments are (no pun intended) largely noise.
Not just Germany, there are many more countries including the USA. Again not everyone will be on winter tyres. Take today temperatures are well above 7 degrees and the car is consistently and persistently doing this.
You aren't the only engineer on here Actually my pre-fix is ing and also got a Drs if you really want to go down that route.
The TIPS document is dated very recent, well after this has surfaced and started to grow in common knowledge. Sure it may be seen by the design team as an acceptable compromise, that doesn't mean they shouldn't inform their customers of such a decision which has got such a profound impact.
Further more there is no reference in the manual that this may happen, nor on their website, in-fact it isn't stated as any reason anywhere that if you don't put winter tyres on then this may happen. None of their literature describes this, nor do any of their sales agents.
As such I come to a different conclusion, and I doubt design intent and lean more towards inadequate testing of the right hand drive models.
It all depends on the context in which this comment was and is being made. And there are two;
1. First when you have been a satisfied customer with a particular brand then you may reasonably expect a continuation of the characteristics. Mercedes is in fact very good at that when you take a look at overall styling and design clues. As such it is not reasonable to expect a remarkably different experience.
2. Many a time a comment has been made that it depends on the tyres, or it is because of the size wheels. We now know that it really doesn't matter which tyres are being used as it does it on Pirelli, Hankook, Continental etc. And also we know that it doesn't matter which size wheels are being used as it does it all the way from the 18-21 inch wheel options. My comment was that on my GL I also had 21" wheels and I had the same make/model tyres.
Agreed in principle, however one can argue that there are reasonable expectations of what a car, and especially one with a reputation like Mercedes for comfort and refinement, and even more so with prior Mercedes experience, can expect in the characteristic of a car. Jumping and juddering is not something that comes to mind of most people in regards to a Mercedes Benz.
Agreed on both account; it is an important point, although I think safety is going to be incredibly difficult to proof. Personally I don't feel not safe in the car at all. I don't have enough miles to conclusive demonstrate excessive wear. But that may come later for round two
Yes it feels like the car is going straight, but in my experience it isn't really. Well not in my case.
And they have prior history in messing up right hand drive conversions as well There was a big issue with the S Class.
Fully agreed
And in my personal case one I can't stand behind, I honestly don't feel unsafe in this vehicle. Just totally embarrassed and annoyed at the lack of refinement which do not fit with reasonable expectations, which display characteristics that are not being highlighted by sales staff nor their brochures.
I'm willing to eat humble pie and try winter tires, but most definitely not at my expense. I would not have bought this vehicle if I then had to spend a further what £3-£5K to have a second set of wheels to store and swap. And at what temperature am I supposed to do that? As I said in the beginning of this reply, it is very mild today. What does the TIPS document class as low temperatures? I though the generally accepted barrier is persistent temperature below 7 degrees.
It isn't even close to that, yet the car shakes and shudders.
Anyway mine will have the investigation next week, and I'm picking the warmest day of the week so they can see it is not limited to low temperatures.
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