Mercedes GLC Clonking and juddering on near full steering lock

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There's a TIPS document dated 22/12/16 number GI40.10-P-065354

Noise on front axle when cornering or maneuvering -

with 2 sound recordings attached.

Cause: Summer tires in combination with low outside temperatures.

Remedy: Change to winter tires (service not covered by W&G).

Richard
 
Not meaning to be pessimistic but surely we have done the theory of wrong tyres, wrong temperature to death. All of which have been discredited by a number of forumisters who appear to know what they are talking about. This problem is much more serious than changing tyres or moving to Benidorm....
 
To save me going through all the posts on the Judder problem again can someone just remind me whether there are owners who took delivery of their GLC/C during the summer months last year and have had no problems until the cold weather starting kicking in later in the year or have some owners had problems from day one including the summer months. Thanks. Because if there are a number of people who have had untroubled summer driving then it clearly must have something to do with the tyres and not the geometry. Yes, or have I missed something?
 
There's a TIPS document dated 22/12/16 number GI40.10-P-065354

Noise on front axle when cornering or maneuvering -

with 2 sound recordings attached.

Cause: Summer tires in combination with low outside temperatures.

Remedy: Change to winter tires (service not covered by W&G).

Richard

Appreciate the link and the TIPS document reference. Unfortunately mine does it also when temperatures are above 7 degrees which is the general accepted barrier to change over to winter tyres to improve grip.

Secondly I've got the same diameter and make model of tyres I had on my GL, and many other cars. Been living at the same address for the last 16 years. I've never required winter tyres here, not for grip not for need of cold weather. We have not had a cold winter at all so far, this is the first car that is doing this. It is not reasonable to expect in 2017 that one MUST buy winter tyres to avoid this.

Lets entertain the concept that it is true and that it will resolve it, if so then Mercedes has a duty of care to ensure that people are aware at the point of sale that this happens and offer winter tyres as part of the sale. Interestingly for my model Winter tyres don't even exist with MO marking, unless also changing the wheels.

Another interesting point is also that the bulletin comes out after people complain; to me that reeks more of an excuse than a reasoned characteristic that is there by design.

And finally how come it doesn't affect LHD vehicles?
 
then it clearly must have something to do with the tyres and not the geometry. Yes, or have I missed something?

Yes, it's all geometry.The tyres are having to cope with the problem, they are not the cause.

Russ
 
Guys, Mercedes, have a policy that if they cannot repair a car to the owners satisfaction after three visits, they have to replace it with a new one, (a chap at work had a door "squeaking" problem with a "C" class, not resolved, he got a new one form them), reading all these's post's, tho it seems like you wouldn't opt for another GLC
 
Guys, Mercedes, have a policy that if they cannot repair a car to the owners satisfaction after three visits, they have to replace it with a new one, (a chap at work had a door "squeaking" problem with a "C" class, not resolved, he got a new one form them), reading all these's post's, tho it seems like you wouldn't opt for another GLC

:) Exactly, they all seem to do it, the variation is likely where you live, and the individuals tolerance level and alternative experience (i.e. knowing it doesn't have to be like this).

Perhaps if Mercedes pays for the relocation to a LHD country then I'll consider another one.
 
Well all I know is that if Judder the Hut appears on my car and cannot be satisfactorily resolved I will be happy to give it back in exchange for a AMG-GT. Job done!! But on a serious note before I pay for my new car should I get in writing from MB confirmation that if the problem -which they say is 'Normal'- cannot be resolved to my satisfaction then I can give the car back for a full £ refund or exchange for a similarly priced vehicle or can someone suggest a different approach prior to my £ going into their Bank Account?
 
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Guys, Mercedes, have a policy that if they cannot repair a car to the owners satisfaction after three visits, they have to replace it with a new one, (a chap at work had a door "squeaking" problem with a "C" class, not resolved, he got a new one form them), reading all these's post's, tho it seems like you wouldn't opt for another GLC

Just to say that MB do not see Juddering as a problem but 'Normal' as many other marques suffer the same problem so not sure how that would affect you legally? Incidentally, if you are following the Honest John report on this the following item was added recently would be interested to know what the 'Mechanics' think the problem is.

''Gilroy 4 hours ago Lucy, if there's any way you can get your email address / FB messenger to me I will send you over a copy of the letter I wrote to the dealership. It definitely helped as my husband and best friend are / used to be mechanics and knew exactly what the problem was. It may help you.
Emma''
 
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But on a serious note before I pay for my new car should I get in writing from MB confirmation that if the problem -which they say is 'Normal'


Something being "normal" is not always something being "correct" or indeed "acceptable".

It cannot be "normal" if, not all of these cars exhibit the behaviour. That would say that that if a car does not exhibit the behaviour, it is "abnormal".
 
Something being "normal" is not always something being "correct" or indeed "acceptable".

It cannot be "normal" if, not all of these cars exhibit the behaviour. That would say that that if a car does not exhibit the behaviour, it is "abnormal".

This is a difficult one as in order to ascertain whether all C43 cars suffer the same problem I would need to test drive a sample number of cars and see for myself. As this is unlikely for logistical reasons how can you actually find out for sure? Guess the only way is that if MB themselves say that ALL of their GLC/C cars suffer this problem then they are actually confirming this but by doing this they strengthen their case when they say its 'Normal' as ALL their cars are doing it not just mine.
 
I wouldn't worry. Either cancel the order (and get a Macan) or proceed - if your car does it, give the dealer plenty of opportunities to sort it to your satisfaction, and if they can't reject it. It will be very difficult to get them to put something in writing.

Or cancel it and get an ML63/GLE63 :thumb:
 
I wouldn't worry. Either cancel the order (and get a Macan) or proceed - if your car does it, give the dealer plenty of opportunities to sort it to your satisfaction, and if they can't reject it. It will be very difficult to get them to put something in writing.

Or cancel it and get an ML63/GLE63 :thumb:

Agreed but not sure if I can get a fully loaded Macan for £47,000ish. As for MB sorting it out they will have to first accept that there's a problem and not just a Characteristic!
 
The key message we have learnt is that only Right-Hand drive GLC's suffer from this inherent juddering and bouncing fault. Left-Hand drive vehicles in Europe / Germany / North America drive perfectly well, although may suffer minor and acceptable slipping, which is totally different to what we are experiencing in our Right-Hand drive GLC's.!
Don't take this the wrong way, but is this fact, or conjecture based upon an absence of internet posts complaining about it? The reason I ask is that in Germany (for example) pretty much everyone will be on winter tyres at this time of year so, bearing in mind that is MBUK's "fix", you're probably unlikely to find German owners complaining. I'm not saying that categorically there isn't a difference in performance between LHD and RHD cars on the platform in question, but likewise I'm not certain that an absence of public comment from the LHD owners is confirmation that there is.

Having given this a good deal of thought (from the perspective of an Engineer) there are three possible reasons for the trait that UK owners are reporting:
  1. It was viewed by the design team as an acceptable compromise in order to meet some other, unknown to us, design intent
  2. Inadequate testing that failed to surface the trait
  3. There is a problem in build or manufacture that means that the vehicle is not performing in the way the design team intended
The TIPS document that Richard referenced in his post above would suggest (unless it was issued without any investigation being carried out, which is unlikely) that the third option can be ruled out. The second option is a possibility, but unlikely, so that leaves the design intent question.
Secondly I've got the same diameter and make model of tyres I had on my GL, and many other cars.
Again, don't take this the wrong way, but imo you're looking at this from the wrong perspective and whether that size of tyre on a GL does or doesn't give the same effect is an irrelevance. If my deduction is correct that the design team deemed it to be an acceptable compromise in order to meet some other design intent, then arguing that another model / make / etc. doesn't do it is easily batted off by MB who will just say "Different vehicle, different design criteria, tough", or words to that effect.

Instead, I think you need to focus your arguments on quantifiable and safety matters. I believe it was Tony Mac who mentioned significant and premature shoulder wear on the front tyres and others have indicated that they are experiencing it too? I think that is a good line of attack, although it is still to an extent subjective.

A potentially better line of attack (again, imo) is that posted by a couple of users on the AMG Private Lounge where they are saying that in certain normal driving scenarios (i.e. not slow speed manoeuvring) the car does not respond to steering input in the expected way. User Richtw posted that his C43 S205:
will scrub at driving speed going round a corner and has on occasion skipped across the road into oncoming traffic! I now judge when to actually pull out of a junction as I have to allow for the car not turning properly!
Another user, rajpatel posted that:
the car seems to display dangerous characteristic of driving itself into path of oncoming traffic
and
it does not go in the direction of the steering.
Arguing that this is unacceptable behaviour of the vehicle is, imo, much more likely to be successful than arguments about slip and judder in low-speed manoeuvring.

Mercedes-Benz designers are not idiots, so there will be a reason why they chose to make the compromises that they did with the MRA 4WD platform steering geometry and drivetrain. Whether those compromises were right or wrong is another matter of course, and they don't have a monopoly on being right either (remember the Moose Test on the original A-Class?).

The first hurdle to overcome is to get MB to accept that the design compromise they chose leads to an unacceptable result in vehicle driving performance. A safety argument is, imo, the strongest chance you have of doing that. From MB's perspective other arguments are (no pun intended) largely noise.
 
Don't take this the wrong way, but is this fact, or conjecture based upon an absence of internet posts complaining about it? The reason I ask is that in Germany (for example) pretty much everyone will be on winter tyres at this time of year so, bearing in mind that is MBUK's "fix", you're probably unlikely to find German owners complaining. I'm not saying that categorically there isn't a difference in performance between LHD and RHD cars on the platform in question, but likewise I'm not certain that an absence of public comment from the LHD owners is confirmation that there is.

Having given this a good deal of thought (from the perspective of an Engineer) there are three possible reasons for the trait that UK owners are reporting:
  1. It was viewed by the design team as an acceptable compromise in order to meet some other, unknown to us, design intent
  2. Inadequate testing that failed to surface the trait
  3. There is a problem in build or manufacture that means that the vehicle is not performing in the way the design team intended
The TIPS document that Richard referenced in his post above would suggest (unless it was issued without any investigation being carried out, which is unlikely) that the third option can be ruled out. The second option is a possibility, but unlikely, so that leaves the design intent question.Again, don't take this the wrong way, but imo you're looking at this from the wrong perspective and whether that size of tyre on a GL does or doesn't give the same effect is an irrelevance. If my deduction is correct that the design team deemed it to be an acceptable compromise in order to meet some other design intent, then arguing that another model / make / etc. doesn't do it is easily batted off by MB who will just say "Different vehicle, different design criteria, tough", or words to that effect.

Instead, I think you need to focus your arguments on quantifiable and safety matters. I believe it was Tony Mac who mentioned significant and premature shoulder wear on the front tyres and others have indicated that they are experiencing it too? I think that is a good line of attack, although it is still to an extent subjective.

A potentially better line of attack (again, imo) is that posted by a couple of users on the AMG Private Lounge where they are saying that in certain normal driving scenarios (i.e. not slow speed manoeuvring) the car does not respond to steering input in the expected way. User Richtw posted that his C43 S205:Another user, rajpatel posted that:andArguing that this is unacceptable behaviour of the vehicle is, imo, much more likely to be successful than arguments about slip and judder in low-speed manoeuvring.

Mercedes-Benz designers are not idiots, so there will be a reason why they chose to make the compromises that they did with the MRA 4WD platform steering geometry and drivetrain. Whether those compromises were right or wrong is another matter of course, and they don't have a monopoly on being right either (remember the Moose Test on the original A-Class?).

The first hurdle to overcome is to get MB to accept that the design compromise they chose leads to an unacceptable result in vehicle driving performance. A safety argument is, imo, the strongest chance you have of doing that. From MB's perspective other arguments are (no pun intended) largely noise.

What a fantastic and well thought out response. I guess it will not satisfy many owners but well done for casting a more balanced argument on this every growing Thread. :thumb:
 
Don't take this the wrong way, but is this fact, or conjecture based upon an absence of internet posts complaining about it? The reason I ask is that in Germany (for example) pretty much everyone will be on winter tyres at this time of year so, bearing in mind that is MBUK's "fix", you're probably unlikely to find German owners complaining. I'm not saying that categorically there isn't a difference in performance between LHD and RHD cars on the platform in question, but likewise I'm not certain that an absence of public comment from the LHD owners is confirmation that there is.
Not just Germany, there are many more countries including the USA. Again not everyone will be on winter tyres. Take today temperatures are well above 7 degrees and the car is consistently and persistently doing this.

Having given this a good deal of thought (from the perspective of an Engineer) there are three possible reasons for the trait that UK owners are reporting:
  1. It was viewed by the design team as an acceptable compromise in order to meet some other, unknown to us, design intent
  2. Inadequate testing that failed to surface the trait
  3. There is a problem in build or manufacture that means that the vehicle is not performing in the way the design team intended
The TIPS document that Richard referenced in his post above would suggest (unless it was issued without any investigation being carried out, which is unlikely) that the third option can be ruled out. The second option is a possibility, but unlikely, so that leaves the design intent question.
You aren't the only engineer on here ;) Actually my pre-fix is ing and also got a Drs if you really want to go down that route.

The TIPS document is dated very recent, well after this has surfaced and started to grow in common knowledge. Sure it may be seen by the design team as an acceptable compromise, that doesn't mean they shouldn't inform their customers of such a decision which has got such a profound impact.

Further more there is no reference in the manual that this may happen, nor on their website, in-fact it isn't stated as any reason anywhere that if you don't put winter tyres on then this may happen. None of their literature describes this, nor do any of their sales agents.

As such I come to a different conclusion, and I doubt design intent and lean more towards inadequate testing of the right hand drive models.

Again, don't take this the wrong way, but imo you're looking at this from the wrong perspective and whether that size of tyre on a GL does or doesn't give the same effect is an irrelevance.
It all depends on the context in which this comment was and is being made. And there are two;
1. First when you have been a satisfied customer with a particular brand then you may reasonably expect a continuation of the characteristics. Mercedes is in fact very good at that when you take a look at overall styling and design clues. As such it is not reasonable to expect a remarkably different experience.
2. Many a time a comment has been made that it depends on the tyres, or it is because of the size wheels. We now know that it really doesn't matter which tyres are being used as it does it on Pirelli, Hankook, Continental etc. And also we know that it doesn't matter which size wheels are being used as it does it all the way from the 18-21 inch wheel options. My comment was that on my GL I also had 21" wheels and I had the same make/model tyres.

If my deduction is correct that the design team deemed it to be an acceptable compromise in order to meet some other design intent, then arguing that another model / make / etc. doesn't do it is easily batted off by MB who will just say "Different vehicle, different design criteria, tough", or words to that effect.
Agreed in principle, however one can argue that there are reasonable expectations of what a car, and especially one with a reputation like Mercedes for comfort and refinement, and even more so with prior Mercedes experience, can expect in the characteristic of a car. Jumping and juddering is not something that comes to mind of most people in regards to a Mercedes Benz.

Instead, I think you need to focus your arguments on quantifiable and safety matters. I believe it was Tony Mac who mentioned significant and premature shoulder wear on the front tyres and others have indicated that they are experiencing it too? I think that is a good line of attack, although it is still to an extent subjective.
Agreed on both account; it is an important point, although I think safety is going to be incredibly difficult to proof. Personally I don't feel not safe in the car at all. I don't have enough miles to conclusive demonstrate excessive wear. But that may come later for round two ;)

A potentially better line of attack (again, imo) is that posted by a couple of users on the AMG Private Lounge where they are saying that in certain normal driving scenarios (i.e. not slow speed manoeuvring) the car does not respond to steering input in the expected way. User Richtw posted that his C43 S205:Another user, rajpatel posted that:andArguing that this is unacceptable behaviour of the vehicle is, imo, much more likely to be successful than arguments about slip and judder in low-speed manoeuvring.
Yes it feels like the car is going straight, but in my experience it isn't really. Well not in my case.

Mercedes-Benz designers are not idiots, so there will be a reason why they chose to make the compromises that they did with the MRA 4WD platform steering geometry and drivetrain. Whether those compromises were right or wrong is another matter of course, and they don't have a monopoly on being right either (remember the Moose Test on the original A-Class?).
And they have prior history in messing up right hand drive conversions as well ;) There was a big issue with the S Class.

The first hurdle to overcome is to get MB to accept that the design compromise they chose leads to an unacceptable result in vehicle driving performance.
Fully agreed

A safety argument is, imo, the strongest chance you have of doing that. From MB's perspective other arguments are (no pun intended) largely noise.
And in my personal case one I can't stand behind, I honestly don't feel unsafe in this vehicle. Just totally embarrassed and annoyed at the lack of refinement which do not fit with reasonable expectations, which display characteristics that are not being highlighted by sales staff nor their brochures.

I'm willing to eat humble pie and try winter tires, but most definitely not at my expense. I would not have bought this vehicle if I then had to spend a further what £3-£5K to have a second set of wheels to store and swap. And at what temperature am I supposed to do that? As I said in the beginning of this reply, it is very mild today. What does the TIPS document class as low temperatures? I though the generally accepted barrier is persistent temperature below 7 degrees.

It isn't even close to that, yet the car shakes and shudders.

Anyway mine will have the investigation next week, and I'm picking the warmest day of the week so they can see it is not limited to low temperatures.
 
Not just Germany, there are many more countries including the USA. Again not everyone will be on winter tyres. Take today temperatures are well above 7 degrees and the car is consistently and persistently doing this.


You aren't the only engineer on here ;) Actually my pre-fix is ing and also got a Drs if you really want to go down that route.

The TIPS document is dated very recent, well after this has surfaced and started to grow in common knowledge. Sure it may be seen by the design team as an acceptable compromise, that doesn't mean they shouldn't inform their customers of such a decision which has got such a profound impact.

Further more there is no reference in the manual that this may happen, nor on their website, in-fact it isn't stated as any reason anywhere that if you don't put winter tyres on then this may happen. None of their literature describes this, nor do any of their sales agents.

As such I come to a different conclusion, and I doubt design intent and lean more towards inadequate testing of the right hand drive models.


It all depends on the context in which this comment was and is being made. And there are two;
1. First when you have been a satisfied customer with a particular brand then you may reasonably expect a continuation of the characteristics. Mercedes is in fact very good at that when you take a look at overall styling and design clues. As such it is not reasonable to expect a remarkably different experience.
2. Many a time a comment has been made that it depends on the tyres, or it is because of the size wheels. We now know that it really doesn't matter which tyres are being used as it does it on Pirelli, Hankook, Continental etc. And also we know that it doesn't matter which size wheels are being used as it does it all the way from the 18-21 inch wheel options. My comment was that on my GL I also had 21" wheels and I had the same make/model tyres.


Agreed in principle, however one can argue that there are reasonable expectations of what a car, and especially one with a reputation like Mercedes for comfort and refinement, and even more so with prior Mercedes experience, can expect in the characteristic of a car. Jumping and juddering is not something that comes to mind of most people in regards to a Mercedes Benz.


Agreed on both account; it is an important point, although I think safety is going to be incredibly difficult to proof. Personally I don't feel not safe in the car at all. I don't have enough miles to conclusive demonstrate excessive wear. But that may come later for round two ;)


Yes it feels like the car is going straight, but in my experience it isn't really. Well not in my case.


And they have prior history in messing up right hand drive conversions as well ;) There was a big issue with the S Class.


Fully agreed


And in my personal case one I can't stand behind, I honestly don't feel unsafe in this vehicle. Just totally embarrassed and annoyed at the lack of refinement which do not fit with reasonable expectations, which display characteristics that are not being highlighted by sales staff nor their brochures.

I'm willing to eat humble pie and try winter tires, but most definitely not at my expense. I would not have bought this vehicle if I then had to spend a further what £3-£5K to have a second set of wheels to store and swap. And at what temperature am I supposed to do that? As I said in the beginning of this reply, it is very mild today. What does the TIPS document class as low temperatures? I though the generally accepted barrier is persistent temperature below 7 degrees.

It isn't even close to that, yet the car shakes and shudders.

Anyway mine will have the investigation next week, and I'm picking the warmest day of the week so they can see it is not limited to low temperatures.

Good luck mate we are all waiting to hear back with their findings. But not to over emphasis the point again but the Porsche Boxster -probably the best 'real world two seater sports car' also suffers from this problem. As I haven't thoroughly researched any Porsche forums can't say just how bad but nevertheless if Porsche who are probably the worlds best sports car maker decide not to engineer this out then there must be a very good reason which -guessing- is the same reason certain MB cars suffer the same problem. And probably Porsche will not make potential Boxster owners aware of this 'Characteristic' prior to sale.
 
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Mine is on Bridgestone - 255 / 45 / R20's

Just in case anyone viewing this thread hasn't seen the video of the unacceptable and embarrassing driving experience MB are calling a characteristic of all GLC's, take a look,

https://youtu.be/E9vpoYz0Msw

Attached are a couple of photos ( not easy taking pics of tyres) showing the extent of the tyre wear on the outer edge of the offside front wheel, after 8,000 miles - this is actually my wife's car and driven very cautiously, although she is now too embarrassed to take her friends out in the GLC, which is a shame because the car looks great, performs well, but has this nasty fault which is a characteristic of all right-hand drive GLC's
 

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Don't mention being a Doctor. It didn't end well last time someone did that.
 

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